fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5024 ]

[ SECRET POST #5024 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5024 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 27 secrets from Secret Submission Post #719.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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ayrt

The thing about gender bending is that it's quite literally completely and utterly pointless by any means.
Mentally there is no difference between men and woman, this goes double when it comes to the characterization of fictional characters. The only reason people seem to want to glue breasts on a character, or pop them off and add a pool tube all the way down under- is for generally one (or any combination) of these three reasons:
A) Fantasy, the writer thinks it's hot to have generbent characters bang. (often via their own orientation)
B) Paranoid Feminismistic callout, to sell some sort of tale about feminist rights and how different this character would be if they were a difference gender; see: OOC and politically driven.
C) Personal preference, a person prefers het/yaoi/yuri and wishes the characters were, so they write them as such.

More often than not I find genderbent fic fall into the second category, where the character is nothing like their original counterpart because of sexism and how that would reflect the growth of the character. Aka, heavy on the personal propaganda and little on actual characterization.
A character will still be that character even if they were born a different gender, simply because that is who they are. It's similar to highschool AU's in the way that 99% of them have one certain mindset when writing their fic and none of that has to deal with canon characterization.

Ugh/ Sorry, I'm dead tired and I figure this makes no sense, but I disrespectfully state it none the less!

I'm not sure if you know this, but people are socialized differently if they have boobs and if they don't. It's a balance, to be sure, but no, a dude who is in an AU where he was always a woman is not going to be 100% the same as he is normally, because yeah, sexism is going to affect how he grew up and what opportunities he would have and what expectations were thrust upon him unless he lives in a truly equal society.

No. Because we a talking about an established character. I am a woman, a tomboy, a metal worker, and is often stopped on the street by strangers who tell me how beautiful I am, give me their legit business cards to call if I have time to model for them.

This is not a class about sexism, this is not a play-by-play about how men have it better, this isn't about enforcing gender stereotypes. No.

You are writing about an existing character, they have a personality, a past, a history. Make them a chick or a dude all you want, but their core has to stay the same because that is who they are.
Otherwise write your self insert or OC or Mary Sue/Gary Stu all you like, just don't tag and label it as the character you're stealing from.

NAYRT - One can write lot of things about a genderswapped character as being the same while also writing some things as being different. It's not an all-or-nothing deal. Plus, ideally the changes are subtle, complicated changes, not just some "Stoic character is emotional now because girl" bullshit.

ayrt

That doesn't check though, it shows through the same way that misogyny is not a common factor in all fandoms.
Man, woman, and anything or everything in between- none of that matters as the character should be themselves. Even with a tweak here and there.
Writing something that emphasizes the challenges a character would have totally gone through if they were a different gender undermines the actual equality that men and women share emotionally, intellectually, and physically.

Overall though you are then writing an OC if you literally cannot conceive that a character could exist if they had casted another gender in the exact same role.

And yet, even as a tomboy and a metal worker, in a heterosexual relationship it will most likely be your boyfriend, who proposes to you, it will be you, who will wear a white dress to the wedding ceremony, you who will carry your future children, and it won't be your last name that these children will get.

Wrong again. I'm not even straight, I wouldn't change my name, and even if I did do relationships I would have no problem buying the ring, also I'm not Christian or American so I wouldn't follow those ideals anyways.
You're talking about gender stereotypes that are broadly featured in media but has no rule in reality. This is basically why I dislike genderbends so much. Being a girl or a guy doesn't mean you have to follow the smallminded definition of what people think gender should be, it varies from individual to individual. There is no cast or die, nor should there be.
It plays of as being very sexist that people think that changing the gender of a character should drastically alter their life and self. It wouldn't.

NAYRT - My gosh, you are so willfully obtuse it's ridiculous.

You're so determined to deny that gender-based socialization has had any effect on you whatsoever, but guess what? Even if that were true (consider me DEEPLY skeptical), this isn't about you, doofus. It's about millions of women nationally, billions of women worldwide, for whom gender-based socialization is very real and has impacted them. Why does the (proven, incontestable) existence of socialized gender norms threaten you so much that you need to be this deeply in denial over it?

Ayrt

Hilarious that you choose this response to reply too. If you wanted your tantrum to have any effect this was not the line of questioning to dig into to in order to fabricate your 'gotcha' moment.

AKA- No.

The anon above me was specifically talking about my own personal listings I had mentioned. They even made themselves clear in their point with their excessive amount of "you"'s they used in their wording- fascinating as it might be, but all reports signify that they are references to me, personally, believe it or not. Y'know, by mentioning all the traits I listed and using the word "You" specifically and repeatedly.
Crazy as it might be, but the evidence does show that the anon above was in fact talking about me as an individual, not as a general representation of every woman living in the world today. Shocking, I know, take a minute if you must- 'Cause hold your hats! You aren't even into the thick of things yet~!

I'm sure you, as a complete stranger has the best insight on my life especially regarding sexism associated with me- but I do digress, as skeptical as you may be, that we are not talking about people here, but characters.
Have I been faced with sexism, sure, but that does not define me. What defines me is who I am as an individual.

So when you take a character and attempt to remove all characterization based on pure sexism, that kinda sucks, imo. It's sexist, and shares the same dis-enlightenment as race-bending can. Like if Tony Stark was Black, would he be some rap enthusiast whose speech is only written in slang? The answer is no.

The character remains the same regardless of the body fandom wants them to possess. Otherwise it's only OCC OC battling for best/worst Mary/Gary Sue/Stu. So if your interest is purely original fiction, stick to that and don't waste my time with your OOC bullshit.

It's not sexism to acknowledge that sexism exists. Grow up.

If you're not straight then it doesn't concern you, I specified "in a heterosexual relationship" for a reason. Do you know how many women's rights activists I know who sign their name with their husbands' last name? Dozens. You're denying their reality by pretending like your experience is universal, or even common in heterosexual relationships that you never even had.

Fucking THIS.

Like, if someone wants to write a genderbend where the character is exactly the same but with a vag and tits, that's no skin off my nose. But almost all the genderbends I've read that were actually well-written were ones where the author managed to subtly, sensitively explore the ways the genderbent character was different than the canon character because of socialization.

The only type of genderbend that actually bothers me is when a male character who is strong, brave, independent, and stoic in canon is genderswapped and suddenly she's emotional, needy, and no longer appears to have any skills to speak of besides making the male characters want her. But even then, I'm not going to leave an angry comment for the author or anything like that, I'm just going to grumble to myself and back-click the fuck out of there.

Or, if people were genderswapping a canon m/m pairing to make it het, I would personally avoid those fics.

anon of the ayrt

Nearly every single fic I've seen that has to do with gender bending, and the ones that made me disregard gender bends as a whole, are the ones you mentioned in your second point.
But at the same time I don't see how doing the exact same thing, just subtly makes for any less than an undesirable experience.
You're writing a story that preaches some sort of misogyny when that isn't even true/doesn't need to happen, and while I know this depends on the fandom, I don't see how removing all the characteristics a character is know form just cause they switched genders is anything less than fulfilling a fantasy OC that has literally nothing to do with the character tagged.

You seem to be making some illogical leaps here, but it's not totally clear what your actually trying to say. You definitely seem to have an all-or-nothing mindset about this, though. Like you cannot really fathom what a subtle change would entail. I could find you some links to good genderbend fics, but I feel like it would probably be a waste of my time, tbh. Your mind seems pretty set.

ayrt

dude, I'm tired. I said as much. I know I'm not making the best points. I know that certain fandoms can work genderbends better than others, but I've avoided them like the plague for decades now.
Honestly, I am all ears for some good recs, but you gotta show me them first in order to change some minds. This whole defeatist attitude doesn't suit you I have to say.

My Canon is set 140 years ago.
Your move.

ayrt

...Yes, and?
I'm pretty sure generbending just emphasizes my point in that era.

While it's true that genderbends of the B variety exist and mostly suck, I feel like you're overstating how prevalent they are. Most of anything sucks, you might just be more sensitive to suck-y genderbend because the particular way they suck rubs you the wrong way. Which is fair, I strongly dislike these types of genderbends as well, but I love the tropes overall.

Others have already mentioned that the good ones have usually subtle changes. I'd say it's the same as for any AU: the characters have to be recognisable despite the AU changes. You asked for examples: rageprufrock has some good female!Steve Rogers fics for the MCU. And the changes to the world make sense, because a female Steve could and couldn't do certain things that a male Cap

Accidentally hit post:

That a male Cap could do. Like, fem!Steve can marry Bucky (it's all Steve/Bucky), but she wouldn't become a super soldier the same way Steve did in the movie because she's a woman.

Fics that explore those kind of changes properly are my jam. And yes, I also often just read genderbending for the porn. My m/m ships are so vastly bigger than the m/f or f/f pairings that I ship that it's actually just easier to search genderbending porn. But even when I'm only reading it for the porn do I still want it to be in character. And there's a lot of genderbending fic that delivers that.

Ayrt

I'll check out the recs for sure, thank you for sharing them!
You are right about me being influenced by the poorer interpretations of genderbending, I ran into a lot (of all three categories) when I first started checking them out. I want to argue that with Peggy being such a prolific character that I can't help but side-eye that Steve would have to change that much but that comes from habit mostly, I can understand it from the historical pov that even though they chose Steve for his nature that they'd be hard pressed in choosing her as the inspiration for America based on gender.

AYRT

I want to argue that with Peggy being such a prolific character that I can't help but side-eye that Steve would have to change that much

I'm not sure what you mean by that. The point is that Steve doesn't have to change much, it's just the circumstances that change and how people react to a female Steve. That's the point I was trying to make; in a good genderbending story the genderbent character is still completely recognisable and any changes to their character make sense in context.

Don't get me wrong, it's fair if you're just not interested in that sort of AU. But I find it unfair when particular subsets of AUs are singled out as being somehow worse in quality when, let's face it, the majority of fic is OOC crap, canon compliant or not (and most published media is also crap, honestly).

Sorry, I haven't read the fic yet, I meant to mention that it wasn't fair to the author for me to criticize their work especially since my mind is geared against genderbends as I don't know how they write them themselves yet.
The misunderstanding is entirely on me, as I completely agree with what you're saying, I was just rambling on about thoughts that had nothing to do about the fic in any way.

Honestly I adore AU's that explore the differences between universes and how that character would act in said situation. Genderbending is one of those AU's that I would love to see explored as well. Some of the best writing I've ever seen comes from these circumstances. I suppose I've just given up on GB as it falls into one of the many categories I've developed over the years as 'better staying away from' if only due to never coming across anything that didn't tick me the wrong way.

It can be done right, hell, one of my most favourite authors of all time has a genderbent fic that involves everything I want in a fic, that I haven't even considered reading based only that the characters are genderbent.
Some of it does rest on my not being entirely into it, but that AU dynamic is my favourite thing, I just hate to be burned by the fact most people don't want the same thing in fic that I do, I guess. When written wrong, certain decisions hit me in the worst of ways, and I just can't stand it.

I'm sorry (yet again) and for asking, but as the author you mentioned has a habit of not tagging their fics, I wanted to know some of the specific titles you would rec specifically? I've clicked on a few, but I'm afraid to dive in onto something that I'm unsure about- if that makes sense??

rageprufrock has some good female!Steve Rogers fics

+1 for the rageprufrock rec. rageprufrock also has an absolutely phenomenal Fem!Lestrade fic for the Sherlock fandom. I was never even into Mystrade, and that fic still managed to be one of the best fics I ever read in the Sherlock fandom.

Thanks for the rec! I'll check them out! I never got into Sherlock but that might actually help me get more comfortable with the concept since I'm not as familiar with them! <3

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[ SECRET POST #5024 ]

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