Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-12-28 05:09 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-12-28 05:09 pm
[ SECRET POST #723 ]
⌈ Secret Post #723 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
101.
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[Super Junior]
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[Supernatural]
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[Cowboy Bebop]
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[Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles]
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[Hellsing]
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[Naruto, Kakashi/Sasuke]
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[How I Met Your Mother]
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[Akikan]
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[Sandman, Matthew/Corinthian II]
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[Life]
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 13 pages, 312 secrets from Secret Submission Post #103.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: not OP
(Anonymous) 2008-12-29 12:15 am (UTC)(link)By your reasoning every rape victim who doesn't trust people of their rapist's sex anymore is sexist.
But we're not talking about rape. We're talking about people being mean to the secret poster. Yes, having people tell you that you don't belong somewhere can be traumatizing, but it's not rape. And, while I'm no psychologist, I do know several rape victims and none of them hate all men because of it.
A better analogy would be that, while most POC are victims of racism, virtually none hate all white people. The secret poster, however, looked at the bad behavior of some Hispanic people in the town where s/he lived and decided that all Hispanic people everywhere, ever were bad. S/he looked at a person's race first and their personality second, which is racist.
Re: not OP
(Anonymous) 2008-12-29 01:26 am (UTC)(link)She never said that she felt all Hispanic people were evil. She said she had (past tense) "something of a prejudice against Hispanic men" and that she "[hasn't] trusted [Hispanic men] since".
The fact that it was a fictional character (almost certainly written by a white person) who managed to show you the error of your ways, just shows the depths of your racism.
It makes sense that a fictional character would show her the error of her ways. Her distrust of Hispanic men most likely meant she was too afraid to approach any in real life.
sick of white people who use the bad behavior of one POC as an excuse to hate all of them
In this case, it wasn't one person. It was a gang that interacted with her for half a decade. Being approached by a gang is bit more traumatic than being approached by a single persons.
I do know several rape victims and none of them hate all men because of it.
Do they have trouble trusting men, like the OP in this case regarding Hispanic men?
I'm not arguing that the OP's stereotyping is correct or forgivable. It's not. However, you're jumping on the condemning wagon a little fast, especially considering the OP is trying to form a less close minded mindset. Condemn the actions, not the person.
Re: not OP
(Anonymous) 2008-12-29 02:18 am (UTC)(link)Fine: she decided that, because some Hispanic men were violent and cruel, all Hispanic people were violent a cruel. But even without the hyperbole, the principle is the same: she sees one Hispanic person as a stand in for all other Hispanic people.
It makes sense that a fictional character would show her the error of her ways. Her distrust of Hispanic men most likely meant she was too afraid to approach any in real life.
Now you've got me wondering how she treated all the Hispanic men she knew in real life. It must have been a lot of fun for them, huh? Being distrusted because of something you've never done. Too bad they weren't fictional, because it's easier for her to see humanity in ink than in actual person.
In this case, it wasn't one person. It was a gang that interacted with her for half a decade. Being approached by a gang is bit more traumatic than being approached by a single persons.
But what about all the people in the town who weren't members of the gang? Because I don't believe she didn't meet one nice person in all the time she lived there. Did she treat everyone like they were gang members?
Do they have trouble trusting men, like the OP in this case regarding Hispanic men?
Well, I'm no psychic, but I can say fairly confidently that, no, they don't have the same problems as the OP. Tensing up when you see someone who looks like your attacker, or feeling nervous if you're left alone with a man, or panicking if someone touches you unexpectedly is not the same as being prejudiced against all Hispanic men.
I'm not denying that the OP had a traumatic experience and, under other circumstances, I would probably be more sympathetic. But her reaction to that experience is telling. She might have left the town with more empathy for those who were 'different', because now she knows what it feels like to be mistreated. But she didn't. Instead, she became a bigot.
However, you're jumping on the condemning wagon a little fast, especially considering the OP is trying to form a less close minded mindset. Condemn the actions, not the person.
I'm not trying to condemn her. But she said something that was racist and I pointed that out. If she really wants to become more open-minded, then technically I'm doing her a favor: unless you know what's wrong, you'll never be able to fix it.
Re: not OP
(Anonymous) 2008-12-29 03:10 am (UTC)(link)She was stereotyping Hispanic males. I don't deny that and I don't approve of it.
Too bad they weren't fictional, because it's easier for her to see humanity in ink than in actual person.
Due to her fear, she never had any interactive contact with real life Hispanic men to see the humanity in. That left a fictional character as the changing influence.
But what about all the people in the town who weren't members of the gang? Because I don't believe she didn't meet one nice person in all the time she lived there. Did she treat everyone like they were gang members?
This is something I wonder about myself. If there was such a large Hispanic population there must have been other Hispanic males—in the half decade she talks about living there—around who weren't part of the race gang that tormented her. Maybe she's shy around men in general: kept to herself a lot and didn't meet any. It's possible the bad blinded her to the good. Either way, it's sad that she didn't try harder to focus on finding/embracing the good.
I imagine, if she treated everyone like gang members, she did nothing other than avoid them.
But her reaction to that experience is telling.
Her only reaction was to have trouble trusting Hispanic males, which she describes as "something of a prejudice". I think our opinons diverge on how we read the word trust.
You say "I'm not trying to condemn her." However just before that you described her as a bigot. Bigot is a heavy word that implies intolerance. She was never intolerant.
I'm doing her a favor: unless you know what's wrong, you'll never be able to fix it.
The entire point of her secret was that she was wrong to stereotype Hispanic males in the past. She knew it was wrong and was trying to fix it. She was thankful that a positive portrayal of a Hispanic male in fiction helped her see where she was wrong.
Re: not OP
(Anonymous) 2008-12-29 04:42 am (UTC)(link)I kind of doubt that she had no contact with Hispanic men after high school, especially if she continued to live in Texas. She might not have had interactive contact, but there must have been times when she had to be in the same room as Hispanic men. And I just wonder how she treated these men, or how her bigotry affected them.
It's possible the bad blinded her to the good. Either way, it's sad that she didn't try harder to focus on finding/embracing the good.
I agree.
I imagine, if she treated everyone like gang members, she did nothing other than avoid them.
What do you mean "avoid them"? You can avoid half of the people in your home town and, like I sad, she must have met some Hispanic men since leaving high school. She probably did try to avoid them and I wonder how she did that. Maybe she became hostile whenever one tried to talk to her, or maybe she panicked and tried to get away if a Hispanic man approached her. But no matter what she did or said, I'd bet that it was incredibly disrespectful to those innocent men.
You seem quite willing to put yourself in the OP's shoes, and I'm just asking you to imagine how her behavior would affect those Hispanic men.
The entire point of her secret was that she was wrong to stereotype Hispanic males in the past. She knew it was wrong and was trying to fix it. She was thankful that a positive portrayal of a Hispanic male in fiction helped her see where she was wrong.
That's a good start. I'm always happy when people start questioning their own racist assumptions. That's why I didn't respond to the original secret. However, her comment in this thread made it sound like she didn't think she'd done anything wrong. It sounded like she was trying to justify her own prejudices and that's why I responded. Distrusting all Hispanic men because some were mean to you is wrong, and I just wanted to point that out.
Re: not OP
(Anonymous) 2008-12-29 05:33 am (UTC)(link)It's definitely something to be curious about. (Although I still disagree with the term bigot. I feel it's a question of did her racist stereotyping extend to bigotry.) Was she outwardly polite or did she ignore them when they spoke to her? Like you, I wonder.
What do you mean "avoid them"?
By "avoid them" I mean she stayed in circles/areas where she knew the likelihood of needing to interact with a Hispanic male would be slim. I too wonder what she did if/when she was in a situation where she would need to interact with a Hispanic male.
I'm just asking you to imagine how her behavior would affect those Hispanic men.
I can imagine a great number of situations where there's a strong lack of respect given to the Hispanic men the OP may have encountered. Plus, avoidance is also, in a sense, a lack of respect; although the men may not be aware of it like they would be with the more obvious forms of disrespect.
The reason I focus on the OP is because you've also focused on the OP. The OP posted her secret/comment and you responded to that by commenting on the characteristics of the OP. While doing so you were inadvertently defending the Hispanic men who may have been disrespected by the OP but you didn't address them directly. I responded in kind.
I'm always happy when people start questioning their own racist assumptions. That's why I didn't respond to the original secret. However, her comment [...] sounded like she was trying to justify her own prejudices and that's why I responded.
I agree. It was the last sentence in her comment that triggered me: "It boiled down to, they didn't think that white people belonged there." There she lumps together a group as having a single mindset, something which is stereotyping again. I gave her the benefit of the doubt because her secret openly states that dealing with her racist stereotyping is a work in progress, something she is "get[ting] over [...] bit by bit."
What made me respond to your comment was this: "The fact that it was a fictional character (almost certainly written by a white person) who managed to show you the error of your ways, just shows the depths of your racism." I can remember thinking something along the lines of "Woah, woah, woah! Since when is having a positive minority portrayal in fiction a bad thing? Doubly so when it makes a person realize they were taking part in racist stereotyping."
Re: not OP
(Anonymous) 2008-12-29 05:56 am (UTC)(link)Oh, I definitely wish that there were more non-white characters who were portrayed in a positive light. And I do agree that fiction can play a crucial role in fighting racism. Like you said, it's easier for white people to identity with a fictional POC than with a real one. We can only fight racism once we recognize it exists and anything that helps people recognize their own prejudices is good. That's why I didn't reply to the original secret. The wording made me cringe, but she did seem to be coming from the right place.
But, ideally, identifying with a non-white character will lead the person to identifying with non-white people. But, based on her comment, it didn't seem like she had made the next crucial step. She was still trying to justify her own prejudices and that's why I commented.
Re: not OP
(Anonymous) 2008-12-29 06:15 am (UTC)(link)Again, I agree. Not being able to look back on the past with fresh eyes and see that it didn't boil down to just "they didn't think that white people belonged there" shows that the OP still has a ways to go. I'm still relying on the secret's statement about working on it "bit by bit" to excuse that slip.
I guess I've always been more of a lure them with honey not vinegar sort of person.
Off topic, but I feel like you're probably on my friends list. LOL.
Re: not OP
(Anonymous) 2008-12-29 08:57 am (UTC)(link)Amen to that.