Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2009-01-03 04:56 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2009-01-03 04:56 pm
[ SECRET POST #729 ]
⌈ Secret Post #729 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
101.
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104.
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105.
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[Doctor Why]
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[Hetalia]
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[Failure to Launch]
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[Megaman]
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[Stargate Atlantis]
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[Death Note, here we go again]
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[Hetalia]
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[Star Trek: DS9; Odo/Kira Nerys]
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[Revolutionary Girl Utena]
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[Supernatural]
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[A Christmas Story]
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[CLAMP]
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[TVXQ: Micky Yoochun & Xiah Junsu]
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[Blackpool]
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[Junjou Romantica]
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 19 pages, 459 secrets from Secret Submission Post #105.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 2 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: 133 addendum
(Anonymous) 2009-01-04 04:27 am (UTC)(link)Do you think that this applies to every single negative stereotype? Are there grounds for believing that all black people are stupid/Latinos are lazy/Jews are greedy etc etc?
'm not sure how the numbers break down, but regardless, I (IMO) don't think that you can tell everyone to stop telling race jokes because they categorically make you a racist when there are at least some of us to whom that doesn't apply.
When did I tell you (or anyone for that matter) that they aren't allowed to tell racist jokes? All I'm saying is that, just as you have the right to say any stupid, offensive thing that pops into your mind, I have the right to tell you that what you said was stupid and offensive.
I thought the moral was that a little bit of racism (rather, deliberate and non-deliberate cultural insensitivity) is in all of us and that we shouldn't take it so personally all the time, especially given how many people don't mean it.
While I see it as: "Everybody's racist. Since everybody's racist no one can ever criticize my racist behavior without being a hypocrite. So I can say whatever I want without any consequences! If anyone gets upset they're just over-reacting and should calm down."
No one has the right to tell me what I'm allowed to find offensive and I have every right to speak up if someone does offend me. The whole point of the song is that I don't have that right. I don't respond well to being told to shut up, especially if the person is calling me a hypocrit in the process.
Well, your original post ("This fucking musical and everyone who likes can all go fuck themselves.") seems to suggest otherwise, which was largely why I responded in the first place. It did seem that you were saying that "if you like this song, you're a terrible racist".
I wasn't upset because they were making racist jokes. What bothered me was how they were trying to justify it. All that anti-PC bullshit does bother me, but I've learned to ignore it. But I've yet to develop defences against people telling me that it's morally wrong for me to say if they've done something to offend me.
I'd also like to point out that the song isn't just talking about racist jokes. The problem started when Princeton assumed that all monsters were related, which is a pretty standard racist assumption. Kate isn't allowed to be upset by this, however, because she is funding a school for monsters and is therefore just as racist as he is. The song really should be a space on that How to Suppress Discussions of Racism bingo card.
I can easily understand why you'd take offense at such jokes, and I hope you can see why some people don't think much of them in appropriate contexts/company. We're not going to change each other's minds, but I hope that we can at least understand where each of us is coming from.
And I can understand your perspective as well. If you've only heard ethnic jokes in an ironic, affectionate context, you'd have a very differnet perspective than someone with more negative experiences. It's all a very subjective issue. I do hope that you understand that I don't think that using ethnic humor makes you a bad person, or even a horrible racist. My issues with this song are more about the justifications for using racist jokes, rather than the jokes themselves.
Re: 133 addendum
It doesn't even matter. The fact of the matter is that people at some point believed it to be fact or based in fact, and over time such stereotypes become more conflated. The bottom line is that stereotypes are (outside of a scientific context) never wholly truthful.
All I'm saying is that, just as you have the right to say any stupid, offensive thing that pops into your mind, I have the right to tell you that what you said was stupid and offensive.
I don't disagree with that. My point is that while it is within your right to be offended, it is not a moral obligation unto me as a human being to also feel offended.
The whole point of the song is that I don't have that right [to be offended]
Once again, we differ on the interpretation of the song, as I see it more about expecting people to accept your moral compass and adjust their behaviors accordingly. As I've said before, you have every right to be offended. However, I don't think that it's right to expect conformation of behavior from others. To be quite frank, you have the right to be offended, and everyone else has the right to not care and to not change a damn thing. And it doesn't make them a racist (IMO).
It's all a very subjective issue.
And I think that's the crux of it. We all have different experiences; we all have different moral compasses; we all have different senses of humor. I don't expect everyone to think like me, but I do expect people to realize that there are people out there who do think like me.