Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2009-01-03 04:56 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2009-01-03 04:56 pm
[ SECRET POST #729 ]
⌈ Secret Post #729 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
101.
__________________________________________________
102.
__________________________________________________
103.
__________________________________________________
104.
__________________________________________________
105.
__________________________________________________
106.
__________________________________________________
107.
__________________________________________________
108.
__________________________________________________
109.
__________________________________________________
110.
[Doctor Why]
__________________________________________________
111.
__________________________________________________
112.
__________________________________________________
113.
[Hetalia]
__________________________________________________
114.
__________________________________________________
115.
__________________________________________________
116.
__________________________________________________
117.
__________________________________________________
118.
__________________________________________________
119.
__________________________________________________
120.
__________________________________________________
121.
__________________________________________________
122.
__________________________________________________
123.
__________________________________________________
124.
[Failure to Launch]
__________________________________________________
125.
[Megaman]
__________________________________________________
126.
[Stargate Atlantis]
__________________________________________________
127.
__________________________________________________
128.
[Death Note, here we go again]
__________________________________________________
129.
__________________________________________________
130.
__________________________________________________
131.
[Hetalia]
__________________________________________________
132.
__________________________________________________
133.
__________________________________________________
134.
__________________________________________________
135.
__________________________________________________
136.
__________________________________________________
137.
[Star Trek: DS9; Odo/Kira Nerys]
__________________________________________________
138.
__________________________________________________
139.
__________________________________________________
140.
__________________________________________________
141.
[Revolutionary Girl Utena]
__________________________________________________
142.
__________________________________________________
143.
__________________________________________________
144.
__________________________________________________
145.
__________________________________________________
146.
__________________________________________________
147.
__________________________________________________
148.
__________________________________________________
149.
[Supernatural]
__________________________________________________
150.
__________________________________________________
151.
__________________________________________________
152.
[A Christmas Story]
__________________________________________________
153.
__________________________________________________
154.
[CLAMP]
__________________________________________________
155.
__________________________________________________
156.
[TVXQ: Micky Yoochun & Xiah Junsu]
__________________________________________________
157.
[Blackpool]
__________________________________________________
158.
__________________________________________________
159.
__________________________________________________
160.
__________________________________________________
161.
__________________________________________________
162.
__________________________________________________
163.
__________________________________________________
164.
[Junjou Romantica]
__________________________________________________
165.
__________________________________________________
166.
__________________________________________________
167.
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 19 pages, 459 secrets from Secret Submission Post #105.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 2 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: 133 addendum
You take facts and then you extrapolate conclusions from those facts. However, you can easily overextend your claims. Based in truth but not truthful. For example, African-Americans in the US have a higher crime rate than many other races. This is fact. However, if one is not careful, one can easily extrapolate that to conclude "being black means that you are more likely to commit crimes", which is not a straight-up lie but is incredibly disingenuous and completely ignores socioeconomic and educational factors, as well as a whole bevy of other considerations. Such a statement would make a sociologist cry.
But, if people aren't allowed to say if something offends them, how are you going to figure out who the appropriate company would be?
Well, obviously, race jokes aren't something you're going to be introducing yourself with. =P You get to know a person's character first, and then you judge what type of conversation is appropriate with that person.
How do you know that your friends don't feel the same way?
Because all of us share jokes like that. It's not like I'm the only insensitive jackass of my friend group. =P If you're curious, it went like this: un-PC personality and sense of humor --> discussing/joking about how the entire concept of race is flawed (it is, and highly so) --> joking about own self's race --> admitting that we find race jokes funny (if profoundly disingenuous) --> telling race jokes --> laughter --> more race jokes, and it goes round. So it's not like it was "Hi, nice to meet you. Btw, [race joke] hahahaha." Thanks for sharing your story, though, especially with a random stranger with whom you've been arguing.
What I don't believe is that most people tell them ironically.
I'm not sure how the numbers break down, but regardless, I (IMO) don't think that you can tell everyone to stop telling race jokes because they categorically make you a racist when there are at least some of us to whom that doesn't apply.
Yes, but I think that's the point of the song which is what we were discussing in the first place.
I thought the moral was that a little bit of racism (rather, deliberate and non-deliberate cultural insensitivity) is in all of us and that we shouldn't take it so personally all the time, especially given how many people don't mean it. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't do something about it if it really offends you, but it's something to think about, lest you extend your distaste for their humor into something more serious like charging them with racism.
"This offends me" =/= "you're a horrible evil person"
Well, your original post ("This fucking musical and everyone who likes can all go fuck themselves.") seems to suggest otherwise, which was largely why I responded in the first place. It did seem that you were saying that "if you like this song, you're a terrible racist".
Overall, we differ drastically in our interpretation of the song and in our ability to depersonalize admittedly offensive humor. And that's okay because LOL OPINIONS. I can easily understand why you'd take offense at such jokes, and I hope you can see why some people don't think much of them in appropriate contexts/company. We're not going to change each other's minds, but I hope that we can at least understand where each of us is coming from. And I hope that if I should ever meet you in real life, I won't tell a race joke. =P
Re: 133 addendum
(Anonymous) 2009-01-04 04:27 am (UTC)(link)Do you think that this applies to every single negative stereotype? Are there grounds for believing that all black people are stupid/Latinos are lazy/Jews are greedy etc etc?
'm not sure how the numbers break down, but regardless, I (IMO) don't think that you can tell everyone to stop telling race jokes because they categorically make you a racist when there are at least some of us to whom that doesn't apply.
When did I tell you (or anyone for that matter) that they aren't allowed to tell racist jokes? All I'm saying is that, just as you have the right to say any stupid, offensive thing that pops into your mind, I have the right to tell you that what you said was stupid and offensive.
I thought the moral was that a little bit of racism (rather, deliberate and non-deliberate cultural insensitivity) is in all of us and that we shouldn't take it so personally all the time, especially given how many people don't mean it.
While I see it as: "Everybody's racist. Since everybody's racist no one can ever criticize my racist behavior without being a hypocrite. So I can say whatever I want without any consequences! If anyone gets upset they're just over-reacting and should calm down."
No one has the right to tell me what I'm allowed to find offensive and I have every right to speak up if someone does offend me. The whole point of the song is that I don't have that right. I don't respond well to being told to shut up, especially if the person is calling me a hypocrit in the process.
Well, your original post ("This fucking musical and everyone who likes can all go fuck themselves.") seems to suggest otherwise, which was largely why I responded in the first place. It did seem that you were saying that "if you like this song, you're a terrible racist".
I wasn't upset because they were making racist jokes. What bothered me was how they were trying to justify it. All that anti-PC bullshit does bother me, but I've learned to ignore it. But I've yet to develop defences against people telling me that it's morally wrong for me to say if they've done something to offend me.
I'd also like to point out that the song isn't just talking about racist jokes. The problem started when Princeton assumed that all monsters were related, which is a pretty standard racist assumption. Kate isn't allowed to be upset by this, however, because she is funding a school for monsters and is therefore just as racist as he is. The song really should be a space on that How to Suppress Discussions of Racism bingo card.
I can easily understand why you'd take offense at such jokes, and I hope you can see why some people don't think much of them in appropriate contexts/company. We're not going to change each other's minds, but I hope that we can at least understand where each of us is coming from.
And I can understand your perspective as well. If you've only heard ethnic jokes in an ironic, affectionate context, you'd have a very differnet perspective than someone with more negative experiences. It's all a very subjective issue. I do hope that you understand that I don't think that using ethnic humor makes you a bad person, or even a horrible racist. My issues with this song are more about the justifications for using racist jokes, rather than the jokes themselves.
Re: 133 addendum
It doesn't even matter. The fact of the matter is that people at some point believed it to be fact or based in fact, and over time such stereotypes become more conflated. The bottom line is that stereotypes are (outside of a scientific context) never wholly truthful.
All I'm saying is that, just as you have the right to say any stupid, offensive thing that pops into your mind, I have the right to tell you that what you said was stupid and offensive.
I don't disagree with that. My point is that while it is within your right to be offended, it is not a moral obligation unto me as a human being to also feel offended.
The whole point of the song is that I don't have that right [to be offended]
Once again, we differ on the interpretation of the song, as I see it more about expecting people to accept your moral compass and adjust their behaviors accordingly. As I've said before, you have every right to be offended. However, I don't think that it's right to expect conformation of behavior from others. To be quite frank, you have the right to be offended, and everyone else has the right to not care and to not change a damn thing. And it doesn't make them a racist (IMO).
It's all a very subjective issue.
And I think that's the crux of it. We all have different experiences; we all have different moral compasses; we all have different senses of humor. I don't expect everyone to think like me, but I do expect people to realize that there are people out there who do think like me.
Re: 133 addendum
(Anonymous) 2009-01-04 02:22 pm (UTC)(link)For the person of colour who hears the joke that means they may give you the benefit of the doubt, but they're also aware of your voice contributing to a culture that normalises negative prejudices and wraps them up as 'humour' as a preventative against allowing them the option of response. (Cause nobody wants to be a killjoy, right?)
The other thing - which creeps me the hell out and would be reason enough to stop me ever telling a racist joke even if I didn't already think such humour was never worth it - is the fact that you can't ever be 100% sure your audience are all listening ironically. Take a group of five people who enjoy sharing "ironic" racist humour. Now add a sixth. He tells the same jokes, he laughs the same way, he meshes with the group really well. The difference is, he genuinely hates people of colour and believes every prejudiced stereotype, and you know what? He thinks the others are all on his side.
Re: 133 addendum
But then you point out that race jokes carry a high risk of offending people, in which case I respond that I'm going to take that risk in appropriate company. They make me laugh, and I want to honestly share my humor, so if I don't have to censor myself, I won't. As with all things friend-related, it's a small leap of faith. I believe I know my friends. I believe that they will find it funny. And I believe that if they don't, they'll make their displeasure known. If these things don't happen, then there's something wrong with the friendship itself.