fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #741 ]

[ SECRET POST #741 ]

⌈ Secret Post #741 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

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102.

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103.

[Twin Peaks]

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104.

[3rd Rock from the Sun]

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105.

[Merlin]

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106.

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107.

[Fairly Oddparents]

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108.

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109.

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110.

[30 Rock]

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111.

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112.

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113.

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114.

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115.

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116.

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117.

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118.

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119.

[The Authority]

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120.

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121.

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122.

[Revenge of the Nerds]

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123.

[House]

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124.

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125.

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126.

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127.

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128.

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129.

[Kamelot, Yu-Gi-Oh: Duel Monsters]

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130.

[The World Ends With You]

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131.

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132.

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133.

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134.

[Stargate]

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135.

[Getbackers]

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136.

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137.

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138.

[Hugh Laurie / House]

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139.

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140.

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141.

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142.

[trans: "arrogant exchange student is arrogant"]

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143.

[Andrew Bird; Noble Beast]

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144.

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145.

[Robot Carnival]

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146.

[South Park/Styx]

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147.

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148.

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149.

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150.

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151.

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152.

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153.

[Spirit: Stallion of the Cimmaron]

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154.

[The Little Mermaid]

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155.

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156.

[Gossip Girl]

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157.

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158.

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159.

[It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia]

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160.

[Valkyrie]

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161.

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162.

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163.

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164.

[Tilda Swinton, Constantine]

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165.

[Don't Stop the Carnival; Henny's Song]

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166.

[Beetle Bailey]

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167.

[Little Mosque On The Prairie]

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168.

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169.

[Don't Be A Menace To South Central While Drinking Your Juice In The Hood]

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170.

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171.

[Love Actually]

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172.

[Tenshi ni Narumon]

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173.

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174.

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175.

[Doctor Who]

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176.

[Hyperdrive]

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177.

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178.

[Harry Potter, Percy Weasley]

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179.

[Smoking Gun Presents World's Dumbest]

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180.

[Blackblood Alliance]

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181.

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182.

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183.

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184.

[Star Trek: Phase Two/Star Trek: New Voyages]

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185.

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186.

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187.

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188.

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189.

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 088 secrets from Secret Submission Post #106.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

114. dude, no, if you've never read them that's what the books are. if you do read them they have more literary references and deep themes and ideas about good and evil than anything other children's literature I've read. and they do it BETTER and more REALISTICALLY than Harry Potter, which I also love.

144. has it ever occurred to anyone that fandom is sexist towards itself because it's made up of girls and girls are going to be pining for the guys? and a lot of girls compete and backstab each other anyway? you're either gay or bi, I'm presuming, so of course the guys aren't who you're looking at. most people? not the case.

153. Spirit gets captured, has a moment of determination, runs away. Spirit gets captured, has a moment of determination, runs away. Spirit gets captured, almost doesn't have a moment of determination, does...

189. I'm only just starting to watch that show on a sporadic basis, and I already want to adopt him.

Way to assume all female fen are shallow harpies.

but I made a point not to say all, I said 'a lot'. I'm a girl who's like 80% hetero and I don't, and I know many straight girls who don't. but 'I'm in this for the girls and I'd take the girls if the guys don't want them' is coming from a completely different place than the straight women who are in it to fangirl the guys and nothing else, so I'm a little surprised the OP doesn't recognize there's a significant POV difference here.

144. Mean Girls is not a documentary.

'a lot of' =/= everyone, and it doesn't mean that it's good or okay either. my main point 9 (which I know now I didn't express very well, this place makes me like 200% more of a bitch than I am anywhere else) is that there's an inherent difference between the OP's point of view and the view of these girls, and that really is not about sexism. it's about something equally ridiculous and stupid, but self-hating sexism is imo not it.

and that 9 snuck in there randomly. keyboard gives me no respect, I swear. :x

I think societal sexism plays a lot into it. It's hard to get a female character viewed the same way as a male character who acts the same way, even outside of fandom. The double standard isn't a "girl" thing, it's an everybody thing.

I agree there are a lot of sexist double standards in general for women, for sure, but that some of them are different than what the OP was talking about. and also that some of them get compounded by shallower women FOR the reasons I stated above - the sterotypes are out there because of sexism, but it's not *because* of self-hate that they're siezed on so a girl can be territorial. if I'm making any sense here.

Have to say, I've never met a girl in fandom who acted anything like what you're talking about. I wouldn't exactly call it self-hate, it's more hate of women behaving the 'wrong way'--which in good fiction, many women do.

you've never seen a female fan get rabid over the actions of a female character, right OR wrong, because 'soandso deserves better' and sometimes among the younger set that means the fangirl's mary sue? this isn't all or even most of fandom, but where do you hang out that you've never seen or even heard of that before?

I've seen it (the Transformers fandom gets it quite a bit, from both males and females), but it's not because high school girls have some inner bitch programming.

I don't remember ever saying anyone was 'programmed' and HAD to act that way - just that it was about 'I want him and I'm jealous' and not hating your own gender.

And I don't think that's why girls in fandom are sexist against women. They dislike the women for not behaving the 'right' way or because they're getting in the way of the OTP, not because they're personally jealous.

I've seen all of those things - it's what she's describing in particular that seems like a jealousy thing to me, and I know I've seen jealous behavior. You just said that you've seen it as well. We're free to disagree on what it is - but that doesn't mean I assume that girls are all like that, or have to be like that because they can't help it. Just that jealousy happens and that if it is jealousy, 'why does no one see how sexy and compelling these women are?' isn't exactly going to make much sense. Jealousy also doesn't make a person sexist - there's a lot of other things in fandom towards women that do, and there's probably some overlap between the OP's theory and mine, but I think the easy "high school" explanation sometimes makes a lot more sense than people give it credit for.

Jealousy implies they want something she's got, which isn't usually the deal. They have a problem because she's not either staying out of the way of the OTP or acting in a manner that goes against their idea of how a woman should act. And that's pretty sexist.

(no subject)

weyrdchic.livejournal.com - 2009-01-16 02:52 (UTC) - Expand

and am I wrong or wasn't Mean Girls based on a book about actual high schools?

High schools. Not fandom.

you said it's not a documentary. and technically, based on a nonfiction how-to-protect-your-little-girl-from-cliques book, it's closer to one than you'd expect. high school isn't fandom, right, but there's more high school mentality IN fandom than a lot of places I've found on the internet. (to say nothing of the fact that a lot of it is people of high school age, but there are plenty of high schoolers are above high school games.)

Not the OP, but I think your presuming is, well, presumptuous.

I think there's probably some internalised self-hatey sexism going on somewhere when people who are devoted to the ship and yet are so hard on the woman.

I've been in more than a few OTP fandoms. Anything which threatens the ship (esp another woman) is seen as a threat, and usually attacked through fanfic, so it's not just about pining for the guy. The right woman is important. Yet the onus for making the ship happen is often heaped on the female character, who's a coward or a tease until she accepts his pure and deserving love.

I reckon it's got very little to do with girls 'competing and backstabbing' and a lot to do with fic writers reproducing the sexist tropes which permeate much romance fiction.

Also, pure anecdata but in my years in a mostly female family, all-girl schooling, and a woman-dominated academic career I've only come across a handful of competing, back-stabby girls. I've heard rumour of them alot, but they're obviously all avoiding me for some reason. No doubt they've just been delayed and some day I'll be ambushed by an army of long-nailed catfighters. Like buses.

Wow. Me write English good. >_

I don't know if I've maybe misinterpreted the OP then - I'm talking about people who dislike the female character to begin with, rather than people who like the ship but put it all on the girl, which I agree probably has a lot more sexism and creepy romance tropes and have I mentioned I hate Twilight? like a lot? anyway.

I've never run into them IRL either, but I've found it's a lot of who you hang out with - I certainly knew who that group was in middle school, and heard about my share of drama in high school, but I wasn't near it or planning to go near it and thank goodness. It's for sure a lot easier to avoid than people think, but I do see it in fandom - or at least hear about it, F_W and fanfiction.net make it so easy.

Even though I disagree with the secret, I think maybe what OP was really stabbing at is that women don't appreciate or love themselves enough to appreciate well-written female characters.

and that's possible, fully. I just feel like I see a lot more 'cameron isn't good enough for house because I just love house so damn much seekrit boyfriend hehe' than self-loathing in fandom. maybe one is actually rooted to the other, but at least on the surface anyway that's always how I read it.

144. I think that's the point of the OP, that women in fandom are sexist and the female part in the OTP ends up as mere placeholders for the fans themselves.

I've met plenty of straight female fans that drool over the guys but still side with the females. The Scullyistas in the XF fandom were a big example of that. I've also met gay women fans who sided with the guys. I think the OP's argument is slightly flawed, but I think yours is even more.

But my position is that that's not sexism persay - if you dislike a character's SO because you have some imagined territory over that character that is personal to you, does that mean that you hate *all women* and that's where this is coming from? The idea that women have to squabble like that to begin with may very well be rooted in sexist ideas, but it's permeated through society to the point that it happens regularly whether a person necessarily hates their own gender or not, and I'm far from the first person to observe that some girls do that.

And of course there will be exceptions, maybe even many exceptions, because plenty of women don't practice this behavior. But I'm talking about the ones who do, the rabid side of fandom that will get ridiculous over a male character because that male character is their imaginary astral plane boyfriend. For a girl attracted to other girls to watch that and say "I would take any of them, so why is none of straight fandom focusing on their awesomeness rather than the guys? they must be sexist," it's a little bizarre considering that's HER orientation, not theirs.

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[ SECRET POST #741 ]

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