fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #750 ]

[ SECRET POST #750 ]

⌈ Secret Post #750 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Actraiser]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 21 pages, 506 secrets from Secret Submission Post #107.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 2 3 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

...I hope nobody starts thinking this shit is the word of God re: Lyle's feelings and motivations. It's porn, fer Chrissakes. Porn written for a kink meme at that.

I can't speak for my collaborator, but personally, I'm just doing this because it's fun and people seem to like it. I pretty much don't have an opinion one way or the other on Neil's sexual preferences.

Do you think we should tack on a second paragraph to the disclaimer? "Just for fun, so don't take the characterizations too seriously" or something?

I'd rather you just stick a plain old "OOC" warning on the fic, frankly.

Well. I don't want to get contentious, but I don't think we're quite that bad.

If I saw any of this as in direct disagreement with established canon, I wouldn't be writing it-- or more accurately I'd change that part to fit.

If you've got any specific examples of things we're writing that you think the characters just plain would not do, again I can't speak for my collaborator but I'd be happy to listen to concrit.

Sure, we're extrapolating a hell of a lot from a hell of a little, but at least IMO that's what pornfic is all about. Most series don't give us details of the characters' sex lives.

I just don't think there's anything at /all/ in canon to imply that Lyle is slutty. All we've seen is him using his sexuality and people's attraction to him to break people's stereotypes, and well as a sincere-seeming effort at flirtation with Anew.

Some of it I can just put off as crack (lol molesting robots, and all that), and even the Lyle/Saji relationship works, for the same reason they're doing Lyle/Anew in canon (in that "Saji does not think of me as Neil"). But as soon as you get going, almost all characterization other than "flirty slut Lyle" goes out the window.

To break it down: Lyle only used flirtation and people's reactions to him to make him seperate from his brother. With Anew he's been a gentleman. You taking his first plot point (antagonize people into realizing I'm not Neil) and making it into a character trait that's really just an excuse for porn. He's a lot more subtle when he actually holds interest.

Plus: he's pretty much the anti-thesis of Neil in terms of normality: Neil was pretty fucked up in the head, what with the pretending that he was with people so Lasse didn't think he was a freak, where Lyle seems a lot more, and better, adjusted to society at large. While this obviously wouldn't negate any kinks, or even a crazy bedroom life, his normalcy /never/ shows up in your fics.

TL;DR: You write like we never saw Lyle beyond episode 5 or so of s2. (This is a problem with a lot of writers in the kinkmeme, [Tieria=mean/post S1 being anything but CB's mommy, Allelujah=not a pussy, Regene=Revive's character instead of a couch potato, etc etc] not just you, but your's is the one that's getting the most attention from it.

BUT that was really TL;DR, and since it's about IC/OCC we might not agree, but those are just some of the off-the-top-of-my-head reasons of "why I don't want to see these interpretations take over fandom".

I wouldn't have had a problem at all if you'd just written one, or even two fics: but you keep writing, and it keeps not getting any better.

(Note: I'm not complaining about Saji because his characterization is really just a victim of taking him out of his canonship, which I've just learned to deal with after years in various fandoms.)

You're raising a lot of good points, and I have to say some of them are actually things I at least have planned to resolve in the arc of the series.

I really don't think our fic is likely to be as influential as you're fearing, though.

I'm listening. I might tweak later characterizations to resolve some of these issues. (We are going to bring them up into space and start actually taking them through the plot arcs of escape from A-LAWS and destruction of Memento Mori, which might help, considering Lyle will be busy as ~~Luke Skywalker~~ a bee.) But I'm just not sure I see the danger.

Really? Really? Haros aside--frequent monogamus sex does not a slut make.

I've always seen Lyle in these fics as more sexually aware than slutty. There is a difference, and it's a pretty significant difference. He's had a few chances to bring in other crew members on the game (Lasse in particular) and he hasn't, which speaks to me of someone who is very conscious of what they are doing and very much wanting to keep the relationship (something that sluts rarely form) going. Even for reasons beyond the sex, it appears, in the latest part? Or maybe I'm reading too much into it--it is pretty heavily implied that the affection is a charade Lyle is putting on for Ian and anyone Ian's told. (I am, however, a hopeless romantic, so I can't help but wish.)

Also, I'd like to point out This (http://kinkmeme.livejournal.com/3608.html?thread=1984792#t1984792), in which the Lyle/orange haro half of

haro_help writes slut!Neil in reply to my slut!Lyle stories. As far as I can tell, if she wants to write slut!Neil, she will... Lyle's no replacement.

Yes, I wrote him as a slut. No, I don't have any remorse. I rather like him begging for it, and I rather like Neil being the one to make him beg. 8D

Well, enjoy it all you like. Just admit it's OOC.

It is out of your character interpretations, yes.

since it's about IC/OCC we might not agree

And you, writing your slutty Lyle and Neil fic, was where my concern for all of this came from: people taking those fics, not thinking they're OOC, and adapting them.

Fanon Lyle, you are being welcomed with open arms.

At least the OPs of the Haro fics are planning to resolve some of the characterization issues.

First: Canon is open to interpretation, the same way stories are open to interpretation. Not everyone will see things identically; this is part of what makes fandom diverse and fun.

Second: You're giving them way too much credit.

I imagined the type of Neil/Lyle relationship I portrayed in my fic as soon as we got Lyle flirting so obviously with Tieria and Felt--whatever episode that was. Two? Three?

FFS... It's a kink meme. I have and will not be posting that stuff anywhere else because I know it is lacking certain vital explanations that a normal fic really ought to have (Like, oh, acknowledgement of INCEST. I find that to be something more important and deserving of explanation than making either of them into sluts) which is why it stays where it is, as it is.

See my previous comments about writing Lyle like you haven't seen past episode 5.

Do you realize that bitching about any fulfillment of any prompt on any Kink Meme is akin to bitching about gifts?

(For the record I agree with you. I think that it is out of character. I also think, however, that it's exquisitely poor taste to bitch about it.

Especially if any of those prompts were yours.)

They weren't mine. My bitching has mostly to do with the people worshipping the fic and then reproducing the character. (But that's a bit more complicated to explain in a F!S.)

It's like only the same few people writing the same characterization in a circle amongst themselves. I haven't seen anybody else aside from them trying to duplicate that yet and that characterization probably won't leave the kinkmeme.

If you're looking for deep characterization anyway, what are you doing in a kinkmeme in the first place? A lot of prompts are intentionally OOC.

The answer would be a very clear "not reading those ones". 00 fandom produces more porn/kinkmeme fics than anything else, sadly. So I'm getting fic where I can.

I really LOL over the bitching about any sluttiness on Lyle's part in my fic, because, you know what? He's sexually obsessed with his twin brother. He not only wants to sleep with his brother, he wants to sleep with his brother very, very badly.

Anon gets a gold star for bitching about Lyle being a slut but not caring that the rampant incest is never acknowledged! No, really. Gold star. A big one, with glitter and yellow construction paper and maybe even no paper cuts.

It's like... gah, like. Okay, like bitching about what color sprinkles you got on your ice cream sundae...when you ordered a banana split. Or something. IDK.

(Here's what you missed, due to lack of reading between the lines: All of the sleeping Lyle does with everyone else is exclusively because he can't sleep with Neil. Following that path of reasoning a few paces further, it means he would be a gentleman to Anew or Saji, because they never had anything to do with Neil. OTOH, he'd be pretty overtly sexual with Felt and Tieria, who were arguably the two CB members closest to Neil.

But then, I guess I should apologize for not beating you over the head with characterization so that it's easy to see how IC slut!Lyle can be. My bad, on that one.)

Why would I bother to address the thing that's so blatantly and retardedly not-canon that it's purely a matter of kink?

No thanks. Kink away, good anon. The fact that you've made your kink fit the canon by route of OOC is what I've got the problem with.

:( If only other people didn't agree that it were OOC, with even the molestingharo!mun wanting to deal with those issues.

Alright! Next time I write a pairing that is, as you so aptly put it, retardedly non-canon, I will make sure I portray the relationship as it is in canon so that it can be IC.

... o wait.

As someone with a Sam icon, I'm going to use Wincest as an example.

Is Sam/Dean a ridiculous non-canon pairing? Is it possible to still write them IC while having them fuck? Why-- yes it is! Pairing not being canon != OOC.

lrn2fanfiction

I understand what you're saying, but it was a really bad example because Sam has kinda on numerous occasions expressed disinterest and/or disgust at the actuality of Dean having sex, so, uh. Anything where Sam has sex with Dean and doesn't find it at least slightly discomforting is OOC, imho. Sorry? XD

Anyway, I'll lrn2fanfiction if you'll lrn2kinkmeme.

...Wow, this thread kind of exploded while I wasn't paying attention, huh.

I'd like to make a small correction here. I still don't think we're writing Lyle OOC. I think my interpretation of his character in this fic is vastly different from how you see him, and I think that fact points to flaws in how I've portrayed him; if the fic was accurately representing the way I think of h_h!Lyle in my head, I don't think you'd have quite so much of a problem with it. I'm going to try to deal with that as best I can, but I maintain that I don't believe we're writing him wrong. We're just not writing him as well as we could be.

And your ice cream analogy isn't quite on the mark, Auto. If the prompt you wrote for wasn't OP's to begin with, then it's more like voicing complaints about the sprinkles on the ice cream sundae ordered by the next guy in line. When the rest of the sundae is Superkid and coconut gelato over tortilla chips.

Which is why I didn't say you thought he was OOC, but wanted to deal with some of the issues I brought up.

And if we're going to do the icecream thing: it's actually a lot more like being in an icecream shop, and people start ordering and buying gelato, but call it icecream. Gelato might be good in and of itself-- hell, some people like gelato better! But it's not icecream.

The way you constructed the sentence strongly implied the former, even if the latter is the literal interpretation.

I'm going to have to disagree about the ice cream. For one thing, yes it is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelato). It's a type of ice cream distinct from the type commonly made in North America, but both substances still belong to the same category; calling gelato "ice cream" is imprecise but not incorrect.

For another, I see where you're going with the nomenclature reference but under no conceivable interpretation am I, or is my collaborator, writing Lyle so drastically removed from his canon self that he no longer deserves to be called by the same name.

Sprinkles fits better because the nature of your concern is that I'm doing something which is fine for one person, or a few people, to choose individually, but which you believe shouldn't become the accepted standard.

Well, call my fic gelato topped with shredded mint leaves, and call Auto's fic gelato topped with shredded mint leaves and served over tortilla chips. I wouldn't want mint-leaf gelato to become standard serving practice, and I wouldn't want this fic's Lyle to become a fandom standby. But both are debatably acceptable in their narrow individual contexts.

*salute* I knew I should have gone with Sherbert. (If that's ice cream too, I really was a bad ice-cream store employer.)

As for your toppings proposition: excellent job. I shall accept it in its form, because you have phrased it so well.

Well, I'm glad we're in accord, then. :)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #750 ]

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