Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2009-02-23 05:06 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2009-02-23 05:06 pm
[ SECRET POST #780 ]
⌈ Secret Post #780 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
101.
[Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure]
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102.
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103.
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104.
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107.
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108.
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109.
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110.
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111.
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112.
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113.
[ShakespeaRetold; The Taming of the Shrew]
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114.
[Bones]
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115.
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116.
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117.
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118.
[Torchwood]
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119.
[Skins, Freddie]
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120.
[resized]
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121.
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122.
[Nintendo Power, Nester comic]
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123.
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124.
[the lonely island, jorma/andy]
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125.
[Are You Afraid of the Dark?]
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126.
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127.
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128.
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129.
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130.
[Bill Hicks]
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131.
[Dollhouse]
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132.
[Dr. Horrible]
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133.
[Merlin]
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134.
[Pride and Prejudice]
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135.
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136.
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137.
[Roger Bart]
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138.
[Demon Knight]
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139.
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140.
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141.
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142.
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143.
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144.
[Candy]
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145.
[Knights of the Old Republic]
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146.
[Dr. Who]
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147.
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148.
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149.
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150.
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151.
[Rockers]
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152.
[Soul Eater]
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153.
[Scrap Heaven]
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154.
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155.
[Avatar]
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156.
[Erin Kelly, Loving Annabelle]
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157.
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158.
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159.
[Joe Biden]
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160.
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161.
[Bleach]
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175.
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 13 pages, 320 secrets from Secret Submission Post #112.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: 127
(Anonymous) 2009-02-23 11:28 pm (UTC)(link)Firstly, I don't think [for the most part] that slash actually has anything to do with real gay male relationships. It's unfortunate but inevitable that it's conflated with male homosexuality because its central image is two men loving/screwing each other.
The thing is though, while my gut instinct is that such appropriation of male bodies is wrong, my line of reasoning breaks down when I try to work out where the harm lies. In the world we live in, female appropriation of the male figure cannot possibly carry the same connotations as male appropriation of the female figure. It's just not possible, because women as a group don't have the power to oppress gay men.
It's also not a case of women aligning themselves with the patriarcy here. Mainstream Western entertainment doesn't slash. That's why women have carved out a space in fandom where slash exists as a subversion of the text, from which they derive a pleasure. I've read arguments that slash is really about writing a character with whom a woman can id without the imperative to demonise, belittle or degrade her - escapism from the mandatory sexism of most entertainment. I've read suggestions that slash is about women embracing sex without having to navigate the power problems of het porn.
I'm not qualified to say if either of these are right. (I personally don't like slash. I don't like it's phallocentrism, and I don't like the way slash-heavy communities marginalise discussions of female characters.) But the possibility that they might be means my hackles get right up when somebody insists it needs to be shut down. Maybe that's my privilege showing though. I know what it is to be a gay woman in the patriarchy - I don't know what it is to be a gay man. Perhaps there is some real harm being done by fandom's love affair with slash of which I'm just ignorant, and on which I need to be educated.
Re: 127
You make a number of good points. I'm certainly not calling for a shut-down; I just wish people would be a little more respectful to people who feel that dissonance and dislike it, instead of responding with "lol, tough cookies."
I've read suggestions that slash is about women embracing sex without having to navigate the power problems of het porn.
And yet it's interesting that so many women introduce those power problems into a male/male relationship, often mangling characterization in the process. I don't intend this as an argument or anything, the comment just made me think when I read it.
Re: 127
I think it's less about trying to code m/f gender roles onto m/m couples and just writing what you know - I mean, the media is saturated with m/f couples, so where are you going to get the kind of context and experience necessary to be able to write an m/m dynamic?
I don't think it's about coding one character as the "woman", either. With het porn, the reader is assumed to identify with the woman, but with slash, you don't necessarily identify with the "uke", so to speak. I mean, just look at any number of fangirls squeeing over some cute uke character and - to quote one of the secrets posted here in the last week about Kuroshitsuji - "feeling like a pedo."
Er, I don't really know where I'm going with this, but I think it's more complicated than "Yaoi equals hot dude and chick with dick". Not to say the stereotypes are positive or any less lame, just that it's.... complicated. >_>
Re: 127
I'm not sure I can agree with this, however:
It's just not possible, because women as a group don't have the power to oppress gay men.
I'm wary of sounding like I'm comparing privileges here, and if it sounds like I'm saying "[x] has it worse than [y] so [x] takes precedence, dammit", smack me.
One thing that leaves me conflicted about slash is the culture it resides in, where homosexuality is constantly broken down into that which benefits straight people, and is thus acceptable, and that which does not and should be done away with. Pseudo-lesbian male-gaze porn is the most obvious example of this; but there's also the increasingly common representation of gay man as woman's best friend, where there is value for [stereotypical heterosexual] women in the fashion sense all gay men *obviously* possess, and the insight they provide into the male psyche, without the worry of a sexual relationship to complicate things. There is no value in the Gay BFF's actual homosexual behavior, though, and that is rarely paid any mind.
Straight female objectification/fetishization of gay men certainly doesn't have the same cultural impact as straight male fetishization/objectification of lesbians, but I think it goes a little far to say there is none.