Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2009-03-14 05:44 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2009-03-14 05:44 pm
[ SECRET POST #799 ]
⌈ Secret Post #799 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 19 pages, 458 secrets from Secret Submission Post #115.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: 147 OP
(Anonymous) 2009-03-15 01:31 am (UTC)(link)For example, in the Harry Potter fandom. Calling Ginny a slut is pretty terrible, but I think calling a real person delusional is even worse. And it's not just in Harry Potter fandom, it's in a ton of different fandoms.
Re: 147 OP
I think that comes from an overinvestment in shipping, (and bashing goes along with that as well)
Either way you were being unclear, because I totally read your secret as, "if you say it is wrong for me to bash characters or use sexist language, you are hurting my feelings", and well after some the things that have happened in fandom lately, I do think there are times when calling someone out on their behavior is more important then trying not to hurt their feelings.
Re: 147 OP
(Anonymous) 2009-03-15 01:54 am (UTC)(link)It's fine if you don't think it is, but I've seen enough of it to disappoint me in nearly every fandom I've been in, across every genre. Therefore it is a mainstay of fandom to me.
Also, I qualified every single statement I made about the people that do this. I didn't say that all people that speak out against bashing do this, or even a majority. I said "many people." There was a reason for my choice in words.
Re: 147 OP
People who have a tendency to bash characters also have a tendency to bash real people as well. So I am not much for giving them the benefit of the doubt in their intentions. I find character bashing leads to a toxic environment, more so then a few measly hypocrites, so I call it out, because I don't want to be around that kind of stuff.
So yeah, i would rather hear defenses of people's favorite characters then watching people tear down their least.
And with the shipper wars you referenced, from an outsider's point of view. Both sides gave as good as they got, I don't think either side had the moral high ground in that whole thing.
Re: 147 OP
(Anonymous) 2009-03-15 02:24 am (UTC)(link)How is it a separate issue? The secret is two-fold. It's not "fandom cares too much about female characters" and it's not "fandom doesn't care about real women", it's that fandom often cares about fictional women at the expense of real ones.
That's not to say that fictional women aren't worth caring about, but, to me, real women always come first. No matter how petty or silly they might be. If they don't to you, that's fine.
Re: 147 OP
What fandoms are you in? Fandom (at least the part mainly populated by women) as a whole is so incredibly boy-focused. Female characters as a whole are mostly ignored, and even in het they are all just used to prop up the men they are paired with.
They are very rarely defended at the expense of real women.
That's not to say that fictional women aren't worth caring about, but, to me, real women always come first. No matter how petty or silly they might be. If they don't to you, that's fine.
So because I don't agree that I should just let go of bashing characters that automatically means I don't value real women more then fictional women. I agree that people shouldn't be insulted, but that doesn't mean that I am not going to call people out on logical fallacies or sexist behavior.
Calling someone out on their sexist remarks will probably hurt their feelings, but their sexist remarks hurt me and I am not going to, nor should I just let it go, even if the person who is saying it is a woman. Bur that is a far cry from caring less about real women then fictional women.
What do you mean they always come first?
Re: 147 OP
(Anonymous) 2009-03-15 02:48 am (UTC)(link)This only makes sense if you agree with your initial assertion. I would agree that it's mostly about the boys, but I hesitate to agree that there aren't female-focused fandoms out there, or female-focused enclaves of fandoms. There will always be fans who like women for themselves. I'm one of them and never have any problem meeting people who feel the same way no matter where I go.
I think the problem is that so many people like that tend to become defensive, in part because they feel isolated.
So because I don't agree that I should just let go of bashing characters that automatically means I don't value real women more then fictional women.
Looking back, I realize that last line implies sarcasm, which wasn't my intent. I actually meant it in good faith, as a sort of "my issues don't have to be your issues", not "you're an uncaring bitch if you don't think my way." Sorry about that.
I agree that people shouldn't be insulted, but that doesn't mean that I am not going to call people out on logical fallacies or sexist behavior.
We keep on coming back to this. Where have I said that you can't call them out on bad behavior? My problem isn't with spirited discussion, it's when that discussion turns personal and angry. You can point out logical fallacies and sexist behavior without being dismissive or rude about it, right?
Calling someone out on their sexist remarks will probably hurt their feelings, but their sexist remarks hurt me and I am not going to, nor should I just let it go, even if the person who is saying it is a woman.
Women shouldn't get special treatment, but I still insist that you can have a discussion without being confrontational or dismissive. Rather than hurt feelings, I think people tend to become more defensive than anything else. I don't really mind if people become defensive when you point out bad behavior, all I'm saying is that when you are discussing a fictional character with someone, you should keep in mind you're talking to another human being.
Bur that is a far cry from caring less about real women then fictional women.
When you are driven to insult real women, in groups or individuals, because of fictional characters, I find that upsetting. That's all the secret is about.
What do you mean they always come first?
What I mean is I try to keep in mind they're not an opponent to beat, but a person to discuss things with.
Re: 147 OP
But here is the thing, I think we are talking on two different planes. When I am talking about bashing, I really do mean bashing, and that is more then just spirited discussion, I don't assume that people who bash characters are going to argue in good faith or treat me with respect, so I usually will just call them out on their behavior. I am not going to be polite about it, because by this time the person who is doing it, is not going to listen to something that nice.
But then i also don't buy that fandom is a safe space either.
Women shouldn't get special treatment, but I still insist that you can have a discussion without being confrontational or dismissive.
I think it depends, I don't think there is anything wrong with being confrontational, because constantly having to rebuke behavior like that is frustrating, and when you try to be understanding it just hits a brick wall. You can be confrontational without being dismissive, but if what their saying is on that low of a level, which to me, bashing usually is then I am not necessarily going to take what they say as valid. Not all opinions deserve equal weight.
I was never referencing normal discussion where both parties are being agreeable. I don't understand why, the people who defend female characters are suddenly on the wrong side or somehow defending fictional women at the expense of real ones.
Re: 147 OP
(Anonymous) 2009-03-15 03:21 am (UTC)(link)If you can help it? That seems pretty easily helped to me.
When I am talking about bashing, I really do mean bashing, and that is more then just spirited discussion, I don't assume that people who bash characters are going to argue in good faith or treat me with respect, so I usually will just call them out on their behavior.
I think that bashing can be something of a misnomer in and of itself. I was recently catching up with the Gundam 00 fandom, and I saw a lot of people being hyperbolic in their dislike of Marina, and in turn getting rude things said about them.
The sad thing about this is that I think these discussions could have really been interesting, concerning Marina as a character and how she's been used by the plot and writers--none of these "bashers" struck me as unintelligent--even if the starting point was "I hope she dies!" But instead we get "I hope she dies!", "STFU, misogynistic jerk!", "WTF, don't call me that!" on and on and on. If your initial response to something like that is "HOW DARE YOU" instead of "Why would you say that?", I think you're missing out on something potentially interesting.
It's like the other day, the secret about Godot. The person that took the time to say "I don't agree with you, but I can understand where you're coming from, here is my thoughts on the matter" was ultimately a lot more interesting to read. Even if you don't understand where the person is coming from, I don't think you should assume you know why a person is "bashing" until you've taken the time to ask.
I don't understand why, the people who defend female characters are suddenly on the wrong side or somehow defending fictional women at the expense of real ones.
Where did I say that defenders are on the wrong side? I'm just saying I've noticed a pattern of people getting defensive on a character's behalf that ultimately leads to bad blood and hurt feelings. Since this is usually wrapped up in the word feminism, I specifically made mention of women, as that sort of thing makes me sad to see. And I don't think it's really so much about feminism as it is about favoritism, to judge the actions of many of them when it comes to women they don't like as much.
If you are not that type of person, then don't feel as though you have to defend yourself to me. Keep fighting the good fight, and I mean that in a totally sincere way.
Re: 147 OP
I mean I am human, and sometimes I slipped. You kind of insulted me earlier without meaning to. Sometimes people do awful things without meaning to, I can't say that I will be perfect all the time.
The sad thing about this is that I think these discussions could have really been interesting, concerning Marina as a character and how she's been used by the plot and writers--none of these "bashers" struck me as unintelligent--even if the starting point was "I hope she dies!" But instead we get "I hope she dies!", "STFU, misogynistic jerk!", "WTF, don't call me that!" on and on and on. If your initial response to something like that is "HOW DARE YOU" instead of "Why would you say that?", I think you're missing out on something potentially interesting.
See, I am tired of that starting point, and if starts at that point I don't engage anymore, because at this point I don't want to hear their justifications for why they think a character deserves a firey death or whatever, they set the tone of that conversation, and I don't trust people who start off that way to argue in good faith.
Maybe because when I tried what you said those people should do, I got called a "homophobic slut", and when called that I can't assume good will on their part, and they lost my respect, so at that point I usually step out.
Where did I say that defenders are on the wrong side? I'm just saying I've noticed a pattern of people getting defensive on a character's behalf that ultimately leads to bad blood and hurt feelings.
I guess my point is that that is true for both sides, not just the one side, the source of bad blood does not just lie with the side that is defensive. I think my problem is that you seem to be insinuating that the responsibility lies solely on one group when it doesn't. It is what happens when people are overly invested in their own opinion.