fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #805 ]

⌈ Secret Post #805 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

[White Tiger/ Spider-Man]

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102.

[brentalfloss/FlossOriginals]

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103.

[30 Seconds to Mars]

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104.

[Naruto]

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105.

[Prince of Tennis]

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106.

[heroes, american idol

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107.

[Kim Possible]

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108.

[rurouni kenshin]

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109.

[The Mirror has Two Faces, Vicar of Dibley]

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110.

[The World Ends With You]

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111.

[Star Trek 2009: Kirk/Spock ]

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112.

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113.

[Battlestar Galactica]

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114.

[Skies of Arcadia]

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115.

[Digimon]

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116.

[Mass Effect]

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117.

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118.

[Paul Merton]

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119.

[Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Monsters]

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120.

[Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei]

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121.

[Rookies]

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122.

[Merlin]

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123.

[The Beatles and Harry Potter]

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124.

[Blackadder/Rowan Atkinson/Mr Bean]

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125.

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126.

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127.

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128.

[My Wish - Rascal Flatts]

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129.

[Alexz Johnson, Kurosaki/Tsurara (Kurosagi)]

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130.

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131.

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132.

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133.

[Skyfire/Starscream; Transformers]

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134.

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135.

[Street Fighter]

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136.

[House, resized]

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137.

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138.

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139.

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140.

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141.

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142.

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143.

[Boris Johnson]

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144.

[Torchwood | Jack/Gwen]

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145.

[Twilight cast]

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146.

[Ganbare Goemon]

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147.

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148.

[Superjail]

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149.

[chrome shelled regios]

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150.

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151.

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152.

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153.

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154.

[Supernatural]

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155.

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156.

[Life/Life on Mars]

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157.

[Project Runway Canada]

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158.

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159.

[Skins, The Monkees]

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160.

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161.

[Yu-Gi-Oh!]

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162.

[Fakenews/Sean Hannity]

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163.

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164.

[Taking Woodstock, OK Go, Watchmen, Important Things With Demetri Martin]

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165.

[NCIS]

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166.

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167.

[Fred Durst (Limp Bizkit) / Jonathan Davis (Korn)]

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168.

[The Police]

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169.

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170.

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171.

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172.

[Major/Colonel Schubaltz, Zoids]

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173.

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #115.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

At the risk of getting dragged into debate (I swear I'm not here for the wank) there's actually no evidence of the Egyptian's having slaves. Servants, yes, prisoners of war held in servitude, yes, but generations of slaves, no. There's actually evidence the Hebrews were held in high regard as brickmakers - hence why they were wanted to build Pi-Ramses.

Trying to fit the Bible and history together can get confusing (and I won't debate the murderers thing - we have plenty of evidence for kings hacking up enemies on that one!), not least because a lot of the Bible was backdated - written after events. Nowadays evidence leans away from Ramses being the pharaoh of the Exodus - it's more likely to have been Tutankhamen or Ay.

Aaaand, if I'm stumbling in univited to this conversation (I just like trying to fit Biblical history and Egyptological history together, don't mind me) I'll just shut up and go away now...

I understand where the impression that I was ignorant of all of the above came from, given that many Christians are, but I knew all that already. I was speaking in the context of the film canon, with Bible canon coming secondarily. (I'm fairly familiar with Egyptian history due to a few obsessive phases when I was younger but it's not my field of study, and I've taken it for granted that Ramses wasn't the Pharaoh of the Exodus since ... fifth? grade.)

I've also been familiar with, understood and accepted the "written after the fact" part for such a long time that exactly when came into my knowledge base isn't clear to my memory.

I would love for someone to dig up an Exodus Papyrus - but until that point, we're dealing with exactly one source* for the Exodus story, and the Torah doesn't exactly characterize the Egyptians - particularly the Exodus Pharaoh - as nice people. We're supposed to boo them and root for Moses & Co - which, given that I am Christian and I do have a great deal of regard for the stories of the Hebrew Bible/OT**, I'm perfectly happy to do.

The film goes a long way toward giving Egypt depth through Ramses-as-Moses-brother (which, I'm sure they picked Ramses because a great deal of America recognizes exactly two Pharaohs by name, Ramses is one and it likely wouldn't have accepted Tutankhamen even if he is a historically sound choice) - but that doesn't change that They Are The Villains Of This Story.

I can't help but wonder how much of the "OMG IL RAMSES TOOOOOOO" up thread is due to actual respect for Egypt and Egyptology as a field and how much is due to people taking perverse pleasure in bashing the Abrahamic tradition's God. (Which I see entirely too much from LJ's population of Smug Atheists, along with the characterization of my faith as backwards and bigoted*** and it's something I'm getting increasingly sick of.)

*story source, not manuscript source, obvs.
**although said stories are perhaps less "mine" than if I were Jewish
***I can't speak for LJ Jews and Muslims because I haven't gone looking for their experiences with LJ's Smug Atheists

Ah, sorry, I didn't mean to sound offensive (I never know how people will take LJ comments, which are void of tone and emphasis) - I just wasn't sure if your comment was made in terms of movie or history. I realise that, yes, in terms of the movie and the Biblical telling the Egyptians are the villains (which is why I haven't commented on (m)any of the threads on this topic), but the portrayal of them as slavers always irks me. So I apologise for taking what you meant in film context as historical. Sorry!

Also, as an atheist myself (well, agnostic? who knows what's out there, really?) I really enjoy debating Biblical archaeology with people of religion. Biblical history vs. Egyptological record was something that a Methodist friend and I debated (with each arguing both sides) throughout our degree. While obviously followers of the Bible are going to side with Moses in this case, the Bible is written from that side - and as such is potentially biased or exagerated - that's not to say it's not true, as you point out, we don't exactly have any handy archaeological evidence to back up either side.

And that's actually one of the reasons I hate the film in question - it gives prompt to the aforementioned Smug Atheists to back up Ramses and slander Moses, when I'd really much rather them support Ramses because he did a lot of awesome stuff, and not just because he's a handy anti-religious figure :/

No offense taken - hazard of a text-only interface.

The "If it's in the Bible it is absolute 100% literal truth the end full stop no room for scribe's or translator's error no room for bias not up for discussion" is a viewpoint some of my relatives take and it makes it difficult when every conversation ends with, "I just believe that if it's in this book, it's true." I wind up playing historian and devil's advocate a lot IRL (to the point where some of said family probably thinks I'm an atheist myself) - where elsewhere I take up for my faith and the stories of my faith much more freely.

I'd really much rather them support Ramses because he did a lot of awesome stuff, and not just because he's a handy anti-religious figure :/

That makes me LOL, in large part because - wasn't Ramses the Great one of the Pharaohs who got honorary god status for outliving everyone*? (The film totally mischaracterizes historical!Ramses - he was clearly a badass, not a woobie.)

*to grossly oversimplify Egyptian religious tradition.

I think the Bible has a lot of truth-based events chronicled within it... it's just that it wasn't faxed directly from God, and as a result there are likely to be errors in translation and human biases. It's like, there is evidence for the plagues of Egypt - but is that evidence showing that the plagues were natural occurances, or merely a side-effect from the hand of a higher power? We'll never know one way or the other, so I'm happy to argue both ways.

My dissertation was on Ramses and his self-deification. He turned himself into a god in his lifetime, because apparently he couldn't wait til after death like every other pharaoh XD My favourite piece of art shows him as king offering to himself as a god. Total badass. He'd be so pissed at how he was shown in that movie!

But at the same time Egyptians were amazing for not having religious conflict - if a neighbouring kingdom had different gods it didn't go to war with them over it, Egypt just took on their gods as well to keep everyone happy. They certainly weren't religious extremists. It makes the whole Exodus thing even more complicated. What I wouldn't give for a time machine...

[ SECRET POST #805 ]

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