[ SECRET POST #5519 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #5519 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 34 secrets from Secret Submission Post #790.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Yep. There's lots of things I'd like to like about DS9. But the premise of all the previous Trek shows is "there is always an option other than war". And then DS9 decided to follow up with "except sometimes you just have to do a few warcrimes. As a treat."

[(Anonymous)]

DS9 is basically trying to understand what the ethos of Star Trek looks like in a universe that hasn't been set up by the writers so that there always is another option that successfully works. IMO it does a pretty good job of looking at that, and I don't think that concept is in any way opposed to the ethos of Star Trek.

[(Anonymous)]

It is Star Trek, but what if everything was not Star Trek, and that isn't opposed to Star Trek? GTFO.

[feotakahari]

Yeah, this sounds like when people try to do moral complexity in Star Wars. It just doesn’t work with the setting’s basic assumptions.

(Jedi vs. Sith except the setting allows moral complexity is the Night Watch series by Sergei Lukyanenko. Not sure what Star Trek with moral complexity is, though.)

[(Anonymous)]

DS9.

[(Anonymous)]

It still holds the values of Star Trek, it still thinks that thoe same ultimate values are good and worthwhile and important. It puts them in a different context so that we can get a different perspective.

[(Anonymous)]

Warcrimes, the lack of finding alternatives, following orders without question, military pew-pew being more important than exploration, yeah way to keep hold of the soul of the franchise Moore.

[(Anonymous)]

Following orders without question?

[(Anonymous)]

Sure, and a lot of the ways the the other series set up for avoiding war were literal deus ex machina, I'm not claiming the Gorn episode was a masterpiece of moral complexity. But I don't watch Star Trek for that, I watch it to spend time believing in a universe where they always find a better option than war because war is not a solution.

[(Anonymous)]

(And it's not like DS9 didn't have its own built-in deus ex machina! Which breaks an established principle of the universe that godlike entities all think war is stupid, because that's a prereq for achieving godlike power, and use their powers to set up other races to avoid it.)

[(Anonymous)]

I think these are separate questions to a degree: "Do I like this" and "Is this Star Trek". There's lots of Star Trek that I don't like, but it's still Star Trek.

I don't think the argument that, because DS9 has the same optimistic values as the rest of Trek but writes stories where those values don't automatically work and it requires difficult moral complex choices to try to live those values, it's not Star Trek at all, holds water. And in fact, those elements were generally present to a degree in classic Trek; DS9 just magnifies them, in the same way that DS9 does still have godlike entities and deus ex machinas, it just minimizes them. I think ultimately DS9 has much more continuity with the rest of Star Trek than not.

And beyond that, once you start writing things out of the Star Trek canon, where do you stop? First Contact basically turns Star Trek into Die Hard On The Enterprise. That's a huge departure from the formula of the classic shows. And personally it's absolutely not what I want to watch from Star Trek. But does that mean it shouldn't count as Star Trek? Does Voyager count as Star Trek? Does Enterprise? Where do you draw the line?

[(Anonymous)]

I mean I personally draw it after Captain Kirk dies!

Obviously there's a lot of Trek since then, and saying 90% of Trek canon isn't Trek is silly, but I can say that most later trek (even if I liked it) has dropped the things I loved most in the original.

One of which is the optimistic hopefulness that there is always a way to avoid war, and it's not going to be easy or simple, but as long as everyone is committed to finding it, we can, and we can even make some mistakes on the way, but we got there. That war only happens when someone wants war, not because it's inevitable, and that we as a people can kearn to work around that if we wanr *that* enough.

(of course the other reason TOS and TNG always avoided the war is they didn't do long continuous storylines, another thing I miss in later Trek. My attention span for TV is very, very tiny.)

[(Anonymous)]

“We come in peace! Shoot to kill, shoot to kill, shoot to kill”