fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #809 ]

[ SECRET POST #809 ]

⌈ Secret Post #809 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 09 pages, 218 secrets from Secret Submission Post #116.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 - too big ], [ 1 2 - repeat ], [ 1 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

So then, Sam just becomes a side character? And Dean and Castiel are the main characters?

Is that what you're trying to say?

Same anon:

Yeah, after the last episode in which Sam was shown to have barely a passing interest in Dean and Dean seemed more into bonding with Castiel, I think producers will slowly (or not) increase Castiel's role in Dean's life while writing Sam away, probably giving JP just enough lines to keep kosher with his contract.

It's not the Winchester Brothers anymore, it's Dean and Castiel and maybe Sam. And it's not like fandom really seems to mind so producers have no reason to change anything.

It's not the Winchester Brothers anymore, it's Dean and Castiel and maybe Sam.

Sadly, I can't disagree with you. And if that comes to pass, it'll be why I stop watching the show. The end.

Me too. Sam without Dean and Dean without Sam hold no interest for me.

Please keep running

spn_j2_bigbang! We need the fic more than ever.

Awww, you're so sweet. Thank you! We have plans for a 2010 round, so we're at least covered that long!

*hugs*

Totally different Anon.
Oh my God if the show changes like that, stops being SamandDean and turns completly to DeanandCastiel it's dead. Anything good about it has rotted away. I'm all for wincest but that's not the point. Their brotherly bond was one of the most beautiful and powerful things I have EVER seen on a TV show, and to just throw that away for a character that isn't all that great... it's heartbreaking. I'm not saying you can't like him, you most certainly can but it hurts to think of him taking Sam's place like that.

And fandom sure as hell minds. WE MIND.

Yet a third anon:

Well said. I miss the brotherly bond, all thoughts of slash aside. I just miss the Winchesters being family, and they aren't family any more. If it does become the Dean and Castiel show, I'm not going to watch any more.

A third anon:

Well said. I miss the brotherly bond, all thoughts of slash aside. I just miss the Winchesters being family, and they aren't family any more. If it does become the Dean and Castiel show, I'm not going to watch any more.

I'm a Castiel fan, but I agree with you all about how it should still centre around Dean and Sam. It started that way and I really love their brotherly bond. Sure I'm glad that he's going to be in more episodes, but it shouldn#t infringe on Sam and Dean, it's what the show's about.

Yeah, after the last episode in which Sam was shown to have barely a passing interest in Dean

No offense, but I'm trying to figure out what episode you watched because it doesn't seem like the same one I did. All of Sam's scenes revolved around how much he cares about Dean and how he's doing everything he can to stop him from getting hurt, both physically and emotionally, so much that he's killing demons and practically threatening angels. Even people I know who have been doubting Sam for most of the season had sudden revelations about how much he loves Dean.

If you think that Castiel is there to write Sam off the show rather than existing as a side character to better serve as a foil for the separation between the brothers, then Kripke really has got you fooled. Seems more like wishful thinking than something that has any basis in what the future of the show will be like.

Really? Because I was a little shocked, watching that episode, at Sam's reaction to Dean being ordered to torture Alastair. When he said that Dean couldn't do it, and Ruby assumed it was an emotional thing, but Sam corrected her that it was because Dean couldn't get the job done? He wasn't concerned for his mental wellbeing. Ouch. And yeah, Sam's worried face at Dean's bedside was nice, as was "Miracle! Now!" but he really does think of Dean as weak, and it's in, I think, a scornful kind of way.

I don't necessarily think it's scornful, but it was set up clearly in the episode "Sex and Violence" exactly what the boys think of each other. They're meant to be splitting apart, and the audience is meant to be seeing it.

I...have certainly never seen that interpretation.

Sam says he can't get the job done because he can't. It's not an insult to acknowledge flaws or weakness, especially if ignoring them will get you killed. He doesn't want his brother to get hurt, and he certainly doesn't want him to have to torture because he sees what that does to him and how that's emotionally scarred him for life. Of course he wants to do anything to stop him from having to go through that trauma again.

This is the third time that Sam has had to sit in a hospital and watch his brother close to death. I'm pretty sure he's not thinking about how Dean's weak, but rather, "God, please don't let him die." So when an agent of God just happens to show up, of course he's going to insist on a miracle. It was Castiel's fault, so Castiel should make him better. And even if he was thinking about Dean's lack of strength, it was probably more in a, "I was right, I can't let him do this again because it will kill him" way.

Sam lost his brother less than a year ago. You can't blame him for wanting to do anything he can so that doesn't happen again.

I'm sorry but I didn't see concern for Dean at all, Sam stated that Dean wasn't strong enough, that he couldn't get the job done, and that Sam could. It really doesn't feel like Sam cares all that much for Dean at all, he is more concerned with juicing up on Ruby then how his brother is falling apart. He doesn't see that Dean just needs him to be there for him, that Dean needs to trust him because at the moment Sam has proven that he can't be trusted, all he does is lie to Dean.

It wasn't Castiel's fault, he was under orders, orders that didn't have him in charge or making decisions because he has been getting too close to Dean and too humanity, he has started to care too much.

Sam did lose his brother but by the time Dean got back he had already more or less moved on, he had focused on revenge in the way John did, he was been focused on taking out Lilith this entire time just like his dad was focused on taking out Azazel. In fact, that focus is what leads to those getting hurt around them, because nothing is more important than it. That's how Dean was raised too but he always put Sam first, and look what it did to him.

And while I love Castiel I don't think it will turn into Dean and Castiel with Sam as a side character, I think Sam will be taken to a dark place and have to pick himself back up again. I think that him and Dean will find their way back to being brothers but on a more even ground then ever before. I don't know how Castiel will fit into this other than the belief that he will fall but I am interested in seeing that too.

Honestly, if the show had stayed just two brothers on the road hunting things for 4 seasons I would have stopped watching, things need to build, characters need to grow, and that is what has happened. Hopefully season 5 will be about rebuilding the relationships that have been broken and about the brothers finding their place in the world (together).

I have faith in the writers and Kripke, I want to see what comes next.

Edited 2009-03-25 21:05 (UTC)

Yes, Sam said that. I don't see how saying the truth about someone somehow negates caring about them. If anything, that should show more care since he's actually taken the time to take into account Dean's fragile emotional state. Obviously Sam's not too busy juicing up to save Dean's life in those last two episodes, therefore helping save the apocalypse... Sam is there for his brother, hence him trying to save him in every way that he can.

It certainly is Castiel's fault that he didn't make sure that his trap was in place and was completely impenetrable. And were was he in all those minutes that Alastair was beating the crap out of Dean and trying to kill him? Filing his nails?

Sam was obsessed with killing Lilith because she killed his brother. And he still wants her dead because there is no reason she won't show up out of nowhere and kill Dean again. Sam's scared too, but instead of not doing anything like Dean, he's actually taking measures to make sure he doesn't have to be scared for the rest of his life.

And while I love Castiel I don't think it will turn into Dean and Castiel with Sam as a side character, I think Sam will be taken to a dark place and have to pick himself back up again. I think that him and Dean will find their way back to being brothers but on a more even ground then ever before.

Agreed. :)

Honestly, if the show had stayed just two brothers on the road hunting things for 4 seasons I would have stopped watching, things need to build, characters need to grow, and that is what has happened.

Double agreed! This isn't Desperate Housewives or something where it's just the same plots again and again. I think Kripke and the other writers and the boys would be SO BORED by now if it was just season one every year and it never would have been picked up for this long. I'm glad they've gotten a chance to grow and evolve as it goes on.

Yes, Sam said that. I don't see how saying the truth about someone somehow negates caring about them.

What shocked me is how callous he seemed. I'd been expecting Sam to be worried for Dean because he was being forced to use skills he'd learned in Hell, torturing souls, during the most traumatic, awful, nightmarish years of his life. I thought Sam was going to fight to get Dean out of there because of how emotionally devastating the experience was sure to be. Instead, he said that Dean wasn't strong enough to make Alastair talk. He said it like that was his only concern, and if he thought Dean could get the job done, he'd just sit and wait until the angels returned him. I think Sam still loves Dean, but damn. That was cold.

It certainly is Castiel's fault that he didn't make sure that his trap was in place and was completely impenetrable.

But... he did. The trap was completely impenetrable - to demons. Castiel couldn't have predicted that an angel would sabotage the trap, because he had no idea there were traitors in the Host.

And were was he in all those minutes that Alastair was beating the crap out of Dean and trying to kill him? Filing his nails?

The beatdown took place in a torture chamber. I'm pretty sure sounds of violence didn't strike Castiel as out of place.

I guess we're just interpreting the scene differently because I didn't think it was cold at all. I saw a lot of love and concern and worry when Sam was talking about Dean not being able to do it. *shrugs* Mileage may vary, I guess.

he trap was completely impenetrable - to demons.

Yes, but it was at risk from the perilous treachery of tap water...

Dean was alone in a room with an EXTREMELY dangerous demon who enjoys torture and would stop at nothing to kill Dean. Castiel could have at least checked in on him occasionally. There was no reason for him not to keep an eye on him at all time. What else is more important than making Alastair talk and keeping Dean safe?

Yes, but it was at risk from the perilous treachery of tap water...

Heh. Okay, but the point is that if Uriel hadn't been a traitor, the tap wouldn't have been turned, the trap wouldn't have failed and Alastair wouldn't have been freed. Castiel isn't to blame for Uriel's actions. He did what he could, trap-wise.

Castiel could have at least checked in on him occasionally. There was no reason for him not to keep an eye on him at all time.

Yup, because if I was using a loathed skill-set to interrogate my demonic mentor in torture, I would want an angel dropping in to observe me using my talents. I think Castiel staying out of the room was the respectful thing to do, as respectful as he could be under the circumstances. And he might have been late to the party - because like I said, there's not anything off about what he would have heard coming from that room - but he did show up in time to save Dean's life.

Dean was still at risk though. I mean, chalk isn't exactly the strongest substance known to mankind. If a leaky pipe can break it, then Alastair could have spit at it or bled on it and it would have probably had the same effect. And we know he was doing quite a bit of both. Castiel could have at least splurged for some paint...

I know there was a window in the door. Were there any others? I wasn't really looking. Regardless, there was still a way to watch over him. I think Castiel just got a tad too cocky about his own skill, which almost cost Dean his life. And he wasn't exactly saving him much either. Alastair was about to send Castiel back to heaven and continue killing Dean when Sam showed up and saved the day.

Saving people doesn't exactly seem to be his strong suit. ;)

Castiel sucks at the hand-to-hand, but Dean was being strangled and would have been dead before Sam arrived had Castiel not come in. *shrugs* I don't think he was being irresponsible or careless or cocky, unless you're defining cocky as thinking his supposedly unbreakable devil's trap wouldn't break, in which case we can agree.

Yeah, I hear Jared's really worried about the state of his character and what they're going to do with Sam next season. Apparently he had a falling out with Kripke and ever since Castiel and Ruby have been impinging on his screentime, and he hates it. He's not happy at all about the fact that Misha has been signed on for next season.

Where'd you hear that?

I agree, I haven't heard that rumor at all. What's your source?

ETA: Not that I'd blame him at all. SERIOUSLY.

Edited 2009-03-25 14:59 (UTC)

I heard Jared was being really difficult to work with last season, throwing fits and talking about wanting out of his contract so he could do movies, which is why Kripke split up the plot stuff between Dean and Sam for season 4 and was trying to bring in more regulars... so that the stress on Jared would be lessened.

Also, Jared's been talking for years about wanting to go evil, so I'm skeptical that he would be unhappy with the direction of the character. And he's dating Gen, isn't he? That must be a strange relationship, if he resents Ruby hogging his screentime.

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[ SECRET POST #809 ]

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