fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #818 ]

[ SECRET POST #818 ]

⌈ Secret Post #818 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

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[Homefront]

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[Louis Theroux and Jael Phelps]

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[Code Geass]

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(Family Guy/Seth Macfarlane)

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[Elite Beat Agents]

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(Princess Resurrection)

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[Harry Potter]

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[Where The Wild Things Are]

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[Eminem/Green Day/The New York Dolls]

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[Wolverine and the X-Men]

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[Fallout 3]

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[FFX]

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[Silent Hill]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 077 secrets from Secret Submission Post #117.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

130. Fair enough, but the lack of realism is driving out quite a few of those female voices, who are attracted and would like to fantasize about more realistic men, as opposed to a horde of teenaged, long-haired manorexic Gackt clones whose two emotions are Angst and Wibble.

...In fact, that's the reason I and many of my peer group stopped reading official Yaoi/BL materials altogether and went back to good old TV/video game slash. That and the whole nauseating "seme" and "uke" thing.

132. Fandom twitters might be the only twitters I could stand - you may have a point.

150. I know you're probably a troll, but on the off chance you aren't, I would recommend that you stop playing Squaresoft games.

155. Augh, Lisa :/ I agree. I still feel terrible for being unable to save her.

Heartily agreed re. yaoi/BL fandoms. But it really is just a matter of how we're wired; some women like the long-haired manorexic wibblers, and some of us prefer gritty testosteronefests about grown-ups doing grown-ups. I've talked to women who are really turned on by the idea of seme/uke, often because they feel it speaks to the idea of having more genders than just male or female - whereas I cannot stand it and find it as squicky as any other kind of enforced gender performance. I continue to believe there's enough room in fandom, as a broad enterprise, for all of us; we all find our own niches.

No doubt. The yaoi/BL franchises aren't going to collapse because me and mine stop buying into them; lots of women like that sort of thing. (Just as long as one bears in mind that lots of women don't.)

BL =/= "teenaged, long-haired manorexic Gackt clones whose two emotions are Angst and Wibble." Just sayin'. Especially nowadays.

Me, I like the idea of seme/uke because I like the dynamics. I don't equate it with gender roles (and I'm sick and tired of people insisting that it's a dominant/submissive setup because it's not ffs). If someone doesn't like it that's their prerogative but I'm sick of people going on and on and on about how it's wrong because it's not realistic and how I'm wrong for liking it.

I also believe what you say about fandom - but it's pretty hard when so many people think that you can't enjoy something that they don't like.

Question: the seme/uke trope is a physically smaller, passive, effeminate role and a physically larger, active, masculine role.

How can you not equate it with gender roles? That describes stereotypical female/male gender roles in our - and Japanese - society.

Because it's not a "physically smaller, passive, effeminate role and a physically larger, active, masculine role" trope. They're not even roles. Yes, that's the stereotype and stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason, but I wish people would stop thinking of stereotypes as the rule.

Seme = the one who tops, uke = the one who bottoms, that's all there is to it, really. The rest depends on the author and her own individual taste, kinks, ideas of the characters, etc. Yes, the stereotypes are prevalent but they're not rules, not something set in stone. That's the entire point of BL, that whatever is fine as long as you enjoy it. There are lots of people out there who write manlier/taller/older/more active/more experienced/etc uke, and effeminate/less active/less experienced/younger/etc seme. It's all up to the writer.

You might argue that the stereotypical seme/uke dynamics mirror male/female gender roles but it's not a homogenous thing.

But in that case why give them roles at all? Would not the next logical step be to dismiss the concept of "one who tops" and "one who bottoms" altogether? I mean, I know this is fantasy, but no real human being is going to want things the same way every time for their rest of their natural lives.

But that's the point - that this is not about "real human beings." This is about fantasy characters in fantasy stories. BL is not realistic, is not supposed to be realistic, has never aimed to be realistic, at least not on a whole - works by people such as Ono Natsume (I always forget her BL penname) are sometimes not regarded as BL because they do actually aim to be realistic. The entire point of BL can be summed up with "fun." If it's fun it's all good.

Mind you, lots of BL works do in fact operate with "reversible" pairings - and I've never seen anyone claim that they're "superior" or "more realistic" or whatever because of this, because everyone knows they're not and that's not the point.

Also, some people may enjoy AxB and BxC but not BxA for whatever reason. For others any pairing is fine as long as B is the uke. And so on. There are lots of reasons why one wouldn't want to switch the pairing to reversible - for me, it's usually that I just prefer to see B on the bottom and/or A on the top while the reverse does nothing for me. It's as simple as that. There are pairings where I care and pairings where I don't care. Btw I'm talking about sex now - for me this doesn't influence actual character dynamics. For others it may. For yet others it's their interpretation of the actual character dynamics that makes them decide on which one is the seme and the uke. Etcetera.

Again: it's all up to the writer. If she enjoys AxBxA then she'Ll write that. If she enjoys AxB and BxC she'll write that. if she enjoys everyone x B she'll write that. If she enjoys the prevalent seme/uke stereotypes she'll write those, if she enjoys clueless/younger/smaller seme x assertive/older/taller uke she'll write that, if she enjoys feminine seme x manly uke she'll write that, etc. etc. etc. (I don't know if you've heard of Ayakashi ayashi - for the majority of fandom the very feminine crossdresser Genbatsu was the seme and they had him top pretty much everyone, while street-smart 40 year old "cool older guy" Yuki was usually uke to everyone except for Abi who was what, fifteen years younger and a head taller than him.)

I think the key point here is that BLers regard 'who tops?' as a significant character question within a fanwork, even if only in a sexual sense, and I for one don't feel that way. (Though I think some people who slash outside of BL do). To me it's a matter of tone, or of what kind of sex I want to narrate at the time. I'm in a long-term heterosexual relationship, and there too 'who tops?' is as impulsive a question on any given day as it is in my slash fics.

But see, here you go again with the real life examples. What I'm saying is that yes, real life is different but BL by its nature is not concerned with real life. Whatever I do and have done in my relationships doesn't reflect on my taste as far as fandom and fictional guys are concerned. BLers know that real life is different, they just don't care.

One thing I like about BL (and manga in general) that it's shameless about being a fantasy. Mangaka are not trying to justify their fantasies by trying to make them realistic or trying to turn them into something deep and profound (fandom's interpretations notwithstanding), etc. And readers don't try to justify them either (again, some fannish interpretations notwithstanding). It's all unrepentantly self-indulgent fantasies, the kind that's looked down on in the west (even though it has a long history over here as well, but we've repressed it with all our might) but it flies in Japan. This is why Twilight has a hatedom yet nobody minds Vampire Knight which is exactly the same crap.

Anyway, I think it all comes down to personal preference. Which is why I hate it when people insist that being realistic is the only way to go and if someone doesn't agree she's an ignorant fanbrat who should be mocked and lectured. I totally understand if someone prefers the western idea of slash to BL, if you like that better then it's your prerogative, more power to you. I just wish people would finally stop regarding their way as the only way. Personal preferences are not universal rules that everybody should play by.

(Edited for clarity. Gah. Sorry for the tl;dr.)

And why is it that you think some people WOULDN'T want to stick (for the most part) to the same "role" for most of their lives? Or even just in one relationship, in which they relate to that person that way?

I get really, really frustrated with all this insistence that a) top/bottom or seme/uke or even dom/sub are just mindless reflections of gender roles (NSFW, but HAH (http://malesubmissionart.com/post/85489911/two-men-have-vigorous-doggy-style-anal-sex-on-the)), and b) most people aren't like that, or aren't in relationships like that.

Because yes, a) can sometimes be true, if someone is locked into thinking of relationships as being about, "who is the woman," but I think that accusation is often leveled prematurely.

And regarding b), good god, some people are! Some people really do prefer to either top or bottom. Some people find one role distasteful, and would only perform in that role (if at all) to please their partner. Some people can't find the so-called "egalitarian" approach to sex appealing or sexy or easy to relate to.

It's true that in real life, relationships tend to be a bit more complicated; but it's not like these things really don't exist. And real relationships are always more complicated than fictional depictions anyway!

I mean, if people want to see something else - by all means, they should go ahead and write it. Encourage the creation of other dynamics.

But, "stop writing that, it's sexist and not realistic," is really just kind of insulting to some people.

I get what you're say, but er... that's not really a great picture to use as your "HAH!" example; the uke is still significantly smaller, paler, and prettier than the seme, with extremely effeminate hair to boot. To those who don't buy into the trope that really just looks like a dude doing 12-year-old girl who happens to be really into it, as opposed to the normal weeping and protests.

To me a "HAH!" example would not only have an aggressive bottom, but he would look in any way masculine whatsoever (it would really show me if he were considerably more masculine than the top). As it stands that still looks like gender roles, only with a slightly more assertive woman.

Not that that's a bad thing. I write femdom all the time.

As for the rest... to each her own, as far as things go in the bedroom, but in my experience people who will never, ever, ever want to top under any circumstance or with any partner are proverbial unicorns, or heavily into BDSM. That it seems to describe the majority of those who bottom in BL is grossly unrealistic and why (well one of the reasons why) I don't really get into the genre anymore. I'm sure there are some people like that, but they are the exceptions and not the rule.

...whose two emotions are Angst and Wibble.

Omg xD That just made me laugh so hard.

Er. BL =/= "teenaged, long-haired manorexic Gackt clones whose two emotions are Angst and Wibble." Especially nowadays. BL is a large genre with lots of variations (even if that's not that visible in the mainstream but then mainstream is mainstream), and the fan community is even more varied. The entire point of BL is that it's fantasy - you can write pretty much whatever you want without getting bogged down in realism.

Of course, you're right - I forgot about the broad-shouldered suit-wearing ~~stalker~~ seme whose single emotion is Oh Just Look At The Time ;p

All kidding aside, though, I have seen quite a bit of BL myself and I have never seen characters who look anything like, or have a relationship/profession remotely like, say, the men of Army of Two. Sure the idea might be that since it is fantasy you can write whatever you want, but the reality is that much of it is almost identical.

But I suppose that's porn for you.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #818 ]

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