fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #833 ]

[ SECRET POST #833 ]

⌈ Secret Post #833 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

[John C. Reilly and Will Ferrell]

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102.

[Cirque de Soleil: Kooza]

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103.

[Sidney Crosby]

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104.

[Watchmen]

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105.

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106.

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107.

[M*A*S*H]

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108.

[timothy geithner]

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109.

[Rifftrax - iRiffs - Ice on Mars]

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110.

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111.

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112.

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113.

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114.

[Bleach]

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115.

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116.

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117.

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118.

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119.

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120.

[Avatar]

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121.

[Harry Potter]

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122.

[Jackie Earle Haley]

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123.

[30 Rock]

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124.

[A Song of Ice and Fire]

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125.

[Albert]

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126.

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127.

[Supernatural]

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128.

[Watchmen]

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129.

[Family Guy]

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130.

[Fringe]

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131.

[Boys Before Flowers]

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132.

[American Idol]

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133.

[Law & Order: UK, and Doctor Who]

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134.

(Prison Break, Psych)

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135.

[Life]

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136.

[Phil & Lem, Better Off Ted]

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137.

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138.

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139.

[Hamtaro]

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140.

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141.

[Gamers II]

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142.

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143.

[Kings]

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144.

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145.

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146.

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147.

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148.

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149.

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150.

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151.

[Urinetown: The Musical]

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152.

[Ugly Betty]

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153.

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154.

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155.

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156.

[Joel Hodgson from MST3K]

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157.

[Guys & Dolls Revival]

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158.

[Stormhawks]

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159.

[Nightwish]

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160.

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161.

[Gilmore Girls]

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162.

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163.

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164.

[Raquel Reed]

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165.

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166.

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167.

[FF7]

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168.

[Verbotene Liebe]

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169.

[Wicked]

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170.

[Stargate Atlantis]

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171.

[Megan Hilty/Kayla Collins/Girls Next Door]

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172.

[Artemis Fowl]

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173.

[Ghost Hunters, Torchwood]

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174.

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175.

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176.

[The World Ends With You]

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177.

[The Real Ghostbusters]

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178.

[Being Erica]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #119.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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No, not manonlechat. And no sarcasm in my response below.

I regret never finishing our conversation of last month (I meant to, and got sidetracked), but I think I hit upon one of the differences between us: while I find mindless character bashing (not the same as thoughtful criticism, btw) as weary as the next person, I see a sharp difference between bashing a character/storyline/'ship and bashing a living, feeling person (ie. an opposing "shipper"). "Zutara is an idiot ship" or "Mai is a dumb bitch" may be the height of dumb and inane, but on the moral scale those statements just aren't on par with "Zutarians are assholes" and "Kataang shippers are dumb babies." Countering the former with the latter is like shooting someone for cutting you off on the highway, in my opinion.

All that being said, I'm digressing: mindless character bashing is extremely rare on

katara_zuko. Truly. It is a remarkably sane and peaceful community considering its OTP's popularity and large fanbase.

I would be interested in hearing specifics of the bashing you witnessed on

katara_zuko because maybe it would me to better understand either our differences in philosophy, or our different view of the facts.

I haven't been there recently (and don't plan on going back), but the top posts were basically long screeds on what was wrong with the other side and what not. It just seemed vastly negative and bitter, and well that just isn't a constructive environment.

And honestly, the thing with character bashing, is that to me it isn't inane, it is usually insulting and offensive in the language used, and it usually makes a comment on people who like the character and how horrible they are.

For instance, I don't find a comm where "Mai is a dumb bitch" is allowed to be thrown around, because it is offensive to me and extremely negative.

That and I can't see how that kind of talk is even on topic.

I was using the example of "Mai is a dumb bitch" as an exaggerated example of wearisome character bashing. It was NOT meant to be indicative of the atmosphere at

katara_zuko. Completely the opposite. I am sorry that I was not more clear. :(

Edited 2009-04-18 03:43 (UTC)

I was more explaining why I don't think bashing is constructive, even if it is only bashing a fictional character.

There is a difference between thoughtfully explaining why you dislike a character, without being insulting and bashing, and even so there is such a thing as overdoing it.

That and I had to deal with that stuff way back in another fandom, and quite frankly don't have high patience for it due to that experience.

Like I said, it might have toned back in awhile, but the last time, I was there, the place was extremely negative, and what not. And honestly, I like Mai too much on her own to ever be comfortable in that place, because I am already put too much on defensive for liking her in the first place.

There is a difference between thoughtfully explaining why you dislike a character, without being insulting and bashing, and even so there is such a thing as overdoing it.

We are absolutely in agreement!

It's true that there are a lot of Mai-dislikers in Zutara fandom and I can certainly see why, if you're a fan of her character, you would feel uncomfortable and defensive. But I know from discussions at k_z that Mai has plenty of defenders and vocal admirers. (Personally, I liked her role and character fine in Season Two; hated the execution of the Maiko storyline in Season Three. Just my opinion. One of the things I love about Avatar is its strong female characters--and with the general exception of Katara, I think the development of Toph, Azula, Mai and Ty Lee took steps backward in the last season.)

I don't care if there are admirers, I just am tired of defending my preferences so wouldn't deal with it.

I disagree with you, but most of what I liked about it is that it was different and I think they just plain suit each other, and I found it adorable, very real. And I don't think any of their development went backwards and certainly didn't make any of them not "strong".

But I like Season 3 and the finale (which I loved) which also puts me at a distance from fandom as a whole, and which I am also tired of being defensive.

Me and Avatar fandom don't get a long really.

Edited 2009-04-18 12:43 (UTC)

I meant at the time they were the posts at the first page.

By screeds, do you mean long, emotional attacks where people were not behaving themselves? And there were more than one of these posts, in a row? Were you called names, or told that there was something wrong with you? There are lively discussions on k_z, and certainly people express what they did and did not like about the show, but I don't remember any recent or multiple cases of misbehaviour.

Your description of the community does not match what I know of it, and if we are going to go farther with this discussion you are going to have to provide specific examples.

I mean long drawn out explanations about why Aang and Mai weren't good enough and for Katara and Zuko whatever.

Personally, it is just that isn't something I look for in a pairing comm, if I am going to a pairing comm dedicated to Katara/Zuko, I would want to read fic or discussion about Katara and Zuko, not about Aang or Mai, or other ships because if I wanted that I would go elsewhere.

And this was awhile ago, it could have calmed down since then, so I am not going to go back and put link posts, since honestly I don't think this discussion is worth that much effort.

I have too much work to do to go looking for problematic comments this evening, so it will have to wait until tomorrow.

Until then, I will say: All negativity, whether directed at fictional characters or specific individuals, creates a negative atmosphere. And negative comments about something you love can be just as hurtful as negative comments about you personally, particularly in a fandom setting where the show/characters/relationships are at the center of the community and how it operate.

All negativity, whether directed at fictional characters or specific individuals, creates a negative atmosphere. And negative comments about something you love can be just as hurtful as negative comments about you personally, particularly in a fandom setting where the show/characters/relationships are at the center of the community and how it operate.

And I think that's where we differ philosophically. I'm not claiming that all Zutara-fans feel the same way I do, because they probably don't. But here is my response. Since this is a public forum, I should be clear that I am not specifically referencing k_z. Community standards are stricter and particular. This is also not a justification for character bashing (which I honestly don't find that insulting or horrible; I just find it dumb) or real person bashing (which is always worse than character bashing; people > cartoon characters).

I don't like cultures of relentless negativity either. For one thing, they aren't fun. I want to have fun in fandom: my free time is limited and I'm here to have a good time interacting with other people who love the same things I do. But I don't see all criticism and critique as negative. I get a kick out of them. Part of discussing what works is discussing what doesn't work. Criticism is fun and valuable: it sharpens your ability to discern good from bad and your ability to articulate that discernment. There is a big difference between constructive criticism and bashing.

As long as I am following the accepted rules of a community or am in my personal space, I feel no moral obligation to refrain from criticism/critique/rant/satire/parody or spoof (all of which might be labeled "negative") of any fictional work or any element of a fictional work. I do it to the things I like (including my favorite ships and characters--big time with Zutara, btw!); why should I refrain from doing it to the fictional things I don't like? I am aware that some fans identify strongly with certain characters or ships and take any insult to that fictional character as an insult to themselves. This is unfortunate; but it's also unhealthy, and out of my control.

Question: There has been a lot of anger, negativity, and criticism directed toward the Avatar movie project because of the racial alterations of the characters. Would you ban discussion of these issues because it might create a negative atmosphere? (Kind of an unfair rhetorical question, because I have a feeling you don't like the changes any more than I do.) Why, if it's okay to have serious, possibly negative discussion of Things That Really Matter is it not okay to have serious, even negative discussion of Things That Really Don't (ex. shipping)?

Edited 2009-04-18 05:16 (UTC)

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[ SECRET POST #833 ]

Re: No really, ship-bashing is bad news! ALL AROUND! FOR EVERYONE!

Re: No really, ship-bashing is bad news! ALL AROUND! FOR EVERYONE!

Re: No really, ship-bashing is bad news! ALL AROUND! FOR EVERYONE!

Re: No really, ship-bashing is bad news! ALL AROUND! FOR EVERYONE!

Re: No really, ship-bashing is bad news! ALL AROUND! FOR EVERYONE!

Re: No really, ship-bashing is bad news! ALL AROUND! FOR EVERYONE!

Re: No really, ship-bashing is bad news! ALL AROUND! FOR EVERYONE!

Re: No really, ship-bashing is bad news! ALL AROUND! FOR EVERYONE!

Re: No really, ship-bashing is bad news! ALL AROUND! FOR EVERYONE!

Re: No really, ship-bashing is bad news! ALL AROUND! FOR EVERYONE!

Re: No really, ship-bashing is bad news! ALL AROUND! FOR EVERYONE!

Re: No really, ship-bashing is bad news! ALL AROUND! FOR EVERYONE!