fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5751 ]

[ SECRET POST #5751 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5751 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[Elden Ring]

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03.

[Psychonauts 2]

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04.

[The Piano]

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05.

[Ally McBeal]

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06.

[Splatoon 3]

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07.

[The Venture Brothers]

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08.

[Suspiria]

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09.

[MASH]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 29 secrets from Secret Submission Post #823.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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01. https://i.imgur.com/SCNCjJd.png

Hmm, yes. I think there are similar kinds of issues in a lot of bodyswap stories, including mainstream movies that include body taker-overs (like Wonder Woman 1984) - so many of them are full of horrendous ethical issues if you look at them and consider the wider ramifications, which the works themselves mostly ignore.

There's a good Council of Geeks youtube video on this topic (which you may have seen already) - "The Unexplored Ethics of Body Swap Stories"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XJpIodZfps

AYRT

Yes, I have - I love her videos!

IA but I also think it's basically the correct approach

Stories like this mostly do not improve by considering the wider ethical and societal ramifications of their conceits, and they generally shouldn't do so

AYRT

Yes, I largely agree... depending slightly on genre, I guess. But it's interesting to think/talk about the wider ramifications in fandom areas.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2022-10-04 22:49 (UTC) - Expand

I hated how they handled it in Stargate: Universe. Really gross.

I feel like SGU at least addressed some of the issues of a bodyswap like Telford fucking Young's wife and then the whole fate of Mandy/Ginn where swaps have consequences that are overreaching and tangible. The stones are presented as this nifty thing at first and then things get messy and I liked that it was shown? It felt shown to me at least YMMV...

(no subject)

tabaqui - 2022-10-05 02:47 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2022-10-05 07:25 (UTC) - Expand

So they handled it just as well in SGU as SGU handled everything, horribly.

(no subject)

tabaqui - 2022-10-05 13:35 (UTC) - Expand

Quantum Leap never managed to figure this out, tbh.

They never quite figured out if Sam was inhabiting someone else's body, or just in his own body with a god-induced-illusion around him. They'd do it one way one episode, another way the next.

I don't know how th new series is doing it, if anyone can enlighten me.

100% agreed. My big issue with Wonder Woman 2 and Source Code (the latter is miles worse given the ending of course).

they did that on a Star Trek ep and seemed to think it was OK but it bugged the hell out of me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the case of isekai stuff like that, isn't it usually the protagonist becoming a fictional character from a novel or something? So it's not really the same thing if they're being transported into a book and then becoming a character in a book. It's not like they're swapping with an actual living person or something.

It really depends on the thing they isekai into. In some, it's really just that- a world with NPCs or flat novel characters that don't seem to have much life of their own.
In a lot of cases though, it's implied or outright stated that while the protagonist knows they world they transmigrate into as a book or game, it's actually an existing world/realm and the world the protagonist comes from is just an additional world existing parallel to it (multiverse style-ish).
However, my reference is Chinese transmigration novels more than, say, Japanese novels or manga, and I don't much read game-transmigrations, so there are probably big differences depending on trend and genre.

that's one type of isekai, but not all isekai are that one sub-genre. isekai is just "another world," which could be a real world, a video game that feels real, a fictional world that is real, an alternate universe, etc.

I'm not a frequent enough consumer to have even encountered the type OP is talking about (excepting Quantum Leap I guess) and while I'm familiar with the type you're talking about, I don't read/watch those because meh. My favorite type is being transported to another world or time period, just that, no bells no whistles just a portal to somewhere else.

That is technically correct, the best kind of correct, but since the genre started fans with sloppy language and little real world exposure have expanded it to mean all sort of portal and hidden fantasy works. By the current standards, even Narnia would be considered Isekai; and that is why everyone still hates anime fans.

Yeah, no, it's technically incorrect. Does the term get used for genres it's not applicable to? Yes. Does it mean that there is only one single type of isekai and it's the one ayrt talks about? Absolutely not.

Hmmm, I only know two isekai stories very well, but in one of them the main character replaces someone who was evil enough they weren't very mourned, and in the other one they become a small child. There's certainly still ethical issues there, but "my small child suddenly changed personality and they're not my kid anymore!" is its own long-standing metaphor. Also in both of them the MC is kind of explicitly not a great person and the fact that they're hurting the loved ones of the person they replaced is addressed (Just not as a central issue because, see above, not a great person.)

(Oh, well, and the one where they become a vending machine.)(and the one where they become a slime.)

Maybe it's just me and everyone who writes and likes these things, but I don't think it's necessary to consider ethics of things that are impossible outside of make-believe, like bodyswapping. It's not that it can't be interesting to explore it; it can be, but I think the inherent fictitiousness also makes it ok to use as a device without a "realistic" dive into ethics being a writer's obligation.

The writer isn't obligated to delve into the ethics of it, but the audience isn't obligated to ignore the ethics of it, either, if they don't want to. And it seems like with this trope, a lot of people don't want to.

Personally it's very case specific for me. Sometimes I can be chill and go with it, other times it's like fucking yikes, no, ew.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2022-10-05 07:41 (UTC) - Expand

It's very case-dependant for me. The thing is, I have read novels where the whole "original body had loved ones and they'd be/are heartbroken once they find out" is touched upon and then never mentioned again and... look, as soon as the media actually does acknowledge it but chooses to ignore it afterwards, it bothers me. In some cases, there actually is some sort of closure for the loved ones though, and I appreciate that.

I liked Ascendance of a Bookworm and how Lutz finds out. The most satisfying one was My Next Life as Villainess with how Katarina and Sophia come to grips with her life in the other world.

In I'm the Villainess so I'm Taming the Final Boss, Aileen's personality doesn't get overwritten at all. Her regained memories drive the conflict but she's the same person she always was. I feel the same as the OP so I really love that about it. Plus it's just really good.

Oh hey, I'm reading a BL webtoon right now that features this and the body of the person the main character ends up taking over belonged to a complete and utter asshole of a sex-crazed, washed out actor and druggie with an equally shitty family and the new guy is just like 'welp, fixing all of this shit'

it's going pretty well, actually

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