fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5791 ]

[ SECRET POST #5791 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5791 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 49 secrets from Secret Submission Post #829.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Sure! But that's a teen-side problem, not a fandom-side problem

Before a couple months ago, I would have agreed. But it's come to light that it's not just teens and not just fandom that's being affected by what started with some teens trying to stop other fans from shipping a rival ship to their juggernaut. Parents are talking about their children being bullied in classrooms, and college students are talking about their peers stalking them. For liking characters and ships that prove they're "pedophiles."

I agree that it's bad; I just still think it's not really a problem with fandom.

If the kids don't want to learn about sex through fanfic, you can't make em. If the kids want to use social media to form weird pressure groups or stalk people, that's not really fandom's responsibility.

... you are speaking about freaking reddit totally fictional post

Most problems teens have are teen-side problems. This is one of them.

Is it, though? There are plenty of adults and teens IN fandom who are the ones doing the shaming. If I had a nickel for every person 20+, even in their 30s, who was deeply uncomfortable at the notion that a teen might be reading their 18+ fanfiction or fandom meta posts and freak out and issue DNIs for that behavior; for every person (including teens AND adults) who insist on people disclosing their age ONLINE (a behavior that makes things more dangerous for teenagers, not less) to facilitate said blocking/to reduce the chance a teenager MIGHT ever interact with an adult; for every person (teen AND adult) who think there is NO REASON why you might write underage fanfiction unless you were a pedophile, ignoring the fact that plenty of teens write underage fiction because they're interested in teenage characters and they are sexual beings... well, I would have a lot of nickels. All of that behavior is shaming teenagers for daring to be interested in sex before the magical age of 18.

I think there has been a definite shift in wider internet norms (partly driven by website TOS, which in turn might be driven by U.S. legislation?), which bleeds into fandom (again, both teen and adult parts), that people are morally culpable if their 18+ content gets shown to ANYONE under 18, even if they did not know that person was under 18, because of the mental model that there is an inherent harm involved in a minor seeing adult content, no matter what the circumstances. Even if the minor opted in/proactively sought out that content, they have nevertheless been irrevocably "damaged" by seeing it. This is a very puritanical, sex-negative attitude, one that I think is in some sense a mental extension of the (reasonable) policy that teenagers legally have no ability to consent to sex with adults; here, the extension is that teenagers have no ability to consent to being shown sexual material either, even if in practice the mechanics of the universe does facilitate a teenager stumbling across such material. For example, I think about Discord's TOS, which states as a rule of conduct that everyone must abide by, "Do not make adult content available to anyone under the age of 18." A more neutral, teen-friendly way of phrasing this would be to say, "Adult content must only be made available to people who certify they are 18 and older." Instead, however, we get a rule that does make members, mods, and servers morally culpable if 18+ content gets shown to ANYONE under the age of 18 no matter what the circumstances. And Discord is a major fandom space, whose TOS is written by adults. This isn't just a teen-side problem! It's an adult-side problem, a fandom-side problem, heck even possibly a legal-side problem too.

I want to go back to a time where people clearly labeled adult content but allowed people to lurk and consume adult content in spaces containing such things while being strategically vague about their age. As an adult, I am certainly not going to shove my adult content in the faces of teenage fans. But if a teenage fan reads my adult fanfiction, I'm not going to flip out and yell at them for making ME feel like a predator either (because, no, I don't feel like a predator for a teen voluntarily interacting with something I've clearly labeled as 18+). It's a ridiculous norm that I wish would go away.

The reason for most adults not wanting to know if teens are following their 18+ social media or reading their adult fanfic/look at their adult fanart is not because they're uncomfortable that teens might have interest in sexual stuff. It's usually because the adult could potentially be held responsible if they knowingly distribute pornographic material to minors or even called a groomer, pedo etc. if they outwardly signal they are cool with minors looking at their adult blog.

Most of them don't actually care if the minors do it (considering most of them also looked at adult content in their teens) but there's a difference between not really caring if you don't officially know about it and not wanting to be held responsible if the teens have their ages displayed on their profile and they allow them to follow them anyway. It's a liability thing for most.

AYRT

I do agree there is a difference between NOT taking an easy-to-take action (e.g. blocking) when a teen openly admits to being a teen and consuming your adult content vs. generally being uncomfortable with the abstract notion of teens consuming adult content. However, in EITHER case, I don't think an adult should be held liable (either legally or socially) for passively distributing adult content that teens need to take proactive steps to consume (e.g. following a blog, clicking past an "Are you 18+?" screen, etc.). Insofar as adults are flipping out about overtly teenage people following them out of the belief that adults can be held liable for the actions of a teenager, this is contributing to a fandom-wide problem, in my view.

And like I said, if you have norms where adults in fandom are responsible if their content is viewed by anyone under 18, either knowingly OR unknowingly (as Discord's policy is), then ultimately it doesn't matter if we draw the line at knowing vs. unknowing distribution; the line has already been drawn by other people at the much more expansive "unknowing" line, which is a serious problem in fandom that is clearly not being driven JUST by teens... As a result of policies like this, I have been in so many Discords where teenagers are REQUIRED to disclose their REAL age, as the server could technically be shut down if they lie about being 18+ and get access to 18+ channels. I don't think this policy protects teenagers and it also cuts teenagers off from exploring their sexuality through relatively safe interactions with adult content (safer because they have the ability to control their consumption and can easily disappear from internet communities any time they wish to do so). A lot of fandom is organized around websites with policies like Discord's nowadays, which yes, I do think is making fandom less safe for teenagers and is something that adults and people who want to continue to engage in fandom ultimately have the responsibility for fixing, even if the only thing they can do here is to pressure other, more distant actors to change their policy.

Adults weren't so touchy about teens not accessing their stuff and about slapping DNIs on everything before teens came in and advertised that they were teens looking at adult material and making the adults' lives hell for it. Back when teens lied about their age and kept it that way, we didn't have to worry. Now teenagers literally MAKE us freak out about the idea that they'll see our NSFW because of how they treat us when they do. And still, most of us concede that there will be teens who look at it and as long as they don't disclose their age, there's nothing we can do and it's not a problem. But even saying that is dangerous because just admitting that you don't think the internet should be cleansed of anything a child might see by accident might get a teenager doxxing you for being a pedo.

AYRT

I mean, I get that. I HATE this behavior in fandom. However, I cannot control the way teens behave on the websites I use. I can only control the way *I*, an adult, behave on the websites I use, and I will never do or say anything on my blog that implies that I am somehow morally culpable if teens proactively choose to consume my adult material. I will never do or say anything that implies that the mere fact of teenagers coming into contact with adult material, no matter what the circumstances, is inherently harmful or a sign that grooming has occurred (which includes putting a DNI on my blog or preemptively blocking users who openly state they are teenaged -- I will not do this). As an adult, it is my responsibility to not merely passively respond to the actions and incentive structures being created by teenagers in fandom spaces but to give pushback to attitudes I view as wrong and damaging, even if that exposes me to more danger of being called a pedo or doxxed. Just because teenagers are behaving poorly in fandom (which they undoubtedly are) doesn't mean the buck stops there and I have no responsibility for how my OWN actions and statements could be contributing to the problem...

Hmm I don't know, first of all I believe any adult content creator who is unhappy about kids reading their 18+ content because they believe that could damage their development has the right to feel uncomfortable about it and try to keep teens away. It's not a problem at all. Adhering to censorship (which is everywhere, from movies to games so of course it can be in fanworks too) is part of growing up and the kids should suck it up.
And there is, of course, also the adult idea that they may get in trouble for having their original 18+ content seen by kids. Which is also very valid really because I don't want to go to jail over dumb wank material.

In my case I don't mind whether teens press the "I am over 18 and I consent" button to read my fics but I don't write anything potentially deeply disturbing either. However I do have DNI warnings because I just don't want to interact with teens. First I don't want to feel responsible about someone else's kid's development. Besides, have YOU interacted with teens in fandom in the past 5 years? Let me tell you, it's not fun. So much discourse that's just... *sigh* . But I go "let kids be kids, hey kids DNI" and choose to interact with people in my age range instead of trying to force my geezer views onto them.

If anything I wish there were more age-segregated spaces in fandom. Not because I believe teens are inherently worse or anything but I don't feel great talking to teens online, for legal reasons but also for personal reasons.

AYRT

I believe any adult content creator who is unhappy about kids reading their 18+ content because they believe that could damage their development has the right to feel uncomfortable about it and try to keep teens away. It's not a problem at all.

I mean... I feel like we just disagree on this point. Like, I don't have a problem with people individually feeling uncomfortable about this (like, sure you have the right to feel comfortable/uncomfortable and to act in line with your own sense of comfort), but I think you also need to be clear-eyed and honest about what message you send by those actions and by your public statements, for example, by publicly stating that you believe that you ARE responsible for other people voluntarily consuming content that damages their development and that you take proactive actions to prevent this from happening. Aside from accurately labeling my adult and "disturbing" content, I do not accept ANY responsibility if a teen chooses to disregard those labels and consume my content anyway, nor does the thought of that happening make me uncomfortable nor do I feel compelled to fix or prevent that situation from happening. First of all, I do not believe the stakes are all that high as people imagine (sure, teenagers consuming adult content CAN affect their development negatively, but it can also affect it positively or have no effect in the typical case). Second, I do not take responsibility for random strangers' actions on the internet, period.

First I don't want to feel responsible about someone else's kid's development.

Like, to me, this post is proof of my argument that plenty of adults in fandom are actively contributing to the problem and have absorbed AND are broadcasting the same messed up set of norms that people above are blaming teenagers for. At some point, you have to give kids responsibility for their own development. Kids don't have full agency in life, but they also don't have zero agency either. If they disregard 18+ warnings or lie about their age on the internet in order to get access to adult content, that's on them, not me.

And yes, I have interacted with teens in fandom in the past 5 years, and never voluntarily (because I never talk to or follow teenage accounts), and yes, most interactions with teen fans in the current fandom environment have been hella unpleasant for me. And let me tell you, even more unpleasant have been interactions with antis in their late 20s and 30s who have insisted that all RPF is inherently sexual harassment; who have stated to my face with no qualification that they can tell that people who write (aged up!) fic of underage characters are attracted to CHILDREN; who have made callouts for now-adult artists who dared draw sexual fanart when they were teens (YEARS after the fact) and called them PEDOPHILES (yes, formerly-teenage artists are pedophiles for having being sexual as a teen). These are all behaviors I have seen from grown-ass ADULTS in fandom. So yeah, I am not giving adults a pass for the horrible attitudes they have about teenagers daring to be sexual. If only I could avoid obnoxious behavior just by doing an age test on the internet! I am honestly surprised you have no such negative interactions with people well into adulthood?

AYRT - Of course, and if you agree with that point I feel like we, ultimately, agree. And no I never said anything about responsibility as in, in a legal sense. Of course you shouldn't have any legal responsibility if you labelled your content adequately and some kid still chose to seek it. You said "kids go away", kid didn't go away, platform doesn't censor/isn't age-restricted, what else can you do? It's not your problem. We don't seem to disagree. (The Discord issue is something else: I don't even have Discord but I feel like this guideline you mentioned actively inhibits users who want to share 18+ content there. People just haven't caught up on it yet.) Besides, agreed that not every disturbing or pornographic content is always damaging to a kid's development.

No but as an adult I AM responsible for every kid's development directly or indirectly, whether I want it or not. Their parents can't keep them away from the world and as part of the world I am automatically part of the problem, or the solution. This is the one moral stance in which I believe we may disagree. Of course kids have agency but I don't think they should be punished for their mistakes when it comes to it in the same ways that adults should since they're learning and developing and have a lot to catch up on. Unfortunately this is an unpopular opinion (even more so on FS) and I know it. The thing is, regardless of wanting it or not I am responsible for the world and that includes kids. So as an adult there are things I have to do and cautions I have to take as well. If I KNOW something is going to harm a kid, and I know they will have easier access to it if I share it on platform X, then maybe I will favour platform Y instead.
Again, of course I don't mean legal responsibility. No, you shouldn't be held legally responsible because a kid decided to do the wrong thing.

Oh, guess we can agree on that then. Yeah, those people annoy me too. Not just annoy I feel like THESE people are part of the problem if not the entire problem. They lack common sense really. However I do feel like they're mostly teens (as in 18-20) or very young adults. Which is why I said that I prefer to talk to people in my own age range.

AYRT

Thank you for the reply!

I guess I'm curious what you mean when you say that teenagers shouldn't be "punished for their mistakes" when consuming adult content? Because, like, having been a kid who clicked past warnings and read stuff I felt afterward I was too young for or which I just regretted reading in general, I feel like making mistakes is a very fundamental part of childhood and teenage development and not a feature of life that I would want people to proactively take away from me. Like, I actively think it was good I made mistakes when browsing the internet as a teenager because I learned things about myself when I did so and the negative consequences were so minimal, because I was a kid and just learning, and reading something disturbing in a fictional story is relatively easy to recover and bounce back from. Nor do I feel I was ever being "punished" for making mistakes on the internet, or that, had someone else accepted the blame for putting content in places I could access, that would have made me feel less punished. I am just a bit confused what you mean by "being punished for their mistakes" -- what constitutes as punishment here, who is punishing kids in these circumstances, and does refusing to blame adults automatically equal "blaming" children instead? I don't get it.

And yeah, in my fandom, there are so many antis in their late 20s and 30s that it really doesn't help to say I prefer talking to people in my own age range, unless I do it in a, "I am a fandom old and have no tolerance for anti bullshit" sort of way that indicates both my age AND the kind of fandom norms I grew up on, which I still adhere to. I basically always have to say explicitly that I will boot you from this space if you imply [a list of anti opinions] or rely on such a rule being on the books in any space I join; age just isn't a reliable enough marker. I've been badly burned by this before, thinking just because a space was moderated by people in their 30s that they would not have anti opinions. They did. :'(

No, that's not it but I feel like teenagers shouldn't be punished for their mistakes like an adult might regardless of situation. If an adult claims "I am responsible" I will feel like they are more responsible for whatever than a teen who claims the same. So, as I said, if there is a way to avoid harming a teen who might not know better I will choose it rather than the other way. Unfortunately not all teens have the proper guidance they need and deserve at home. Saying again that I am aware my opinion is not widespread or the majority's but it's my opinion regardless. It's a good thing that you don't regret the mistakes from your youth deeply! Some do and I think of them.

Some stories and scenes (obviously I am not talking about some dumb smut on the web, but then again some dumb smut IS deeply disturbing lol) can be disturbing even to an adult and I would rather avoid exposing a teen to those contents if I can avoid it. Seeing as there are people in the world other than myself, sure they'll find it anyway if they really want to but I feel responsible and won't be the one to expose them! Again, all of this is a personal take and I am not making an effort here to change anyone's opinions.

Hmmm. Got it, this is a hard one but guess I am on the other side of the fence. My fandoms are full of younger people and I've been put under fire plenty of times for disagreeing with popular takes ("anti" stuff but not just that, and I still find this "pro/anti shipping" deal absurdly stupid but I digress). Disagreeing is... just part of the fandom (or the human) experience. And then sometimes you have to quit and look for another community unfortunately. Best of luck with yours!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #5791 ]

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