Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2023-04-20 08:07 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2023-04-20 08:07 pm
[ SECRET POST #5949 ]
⌈ Secret Post #5949 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 14 secrets from Secret Submission Post #850.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 02:34 am (UTC)(link)The mindset of not owing it is what MAKES it a nice gesture. If people think that they HAVE to kudos/comment because they read the fic it becomes obligation and you get stuff like what OP does.
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 02:56 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 03:14 am (UTC)(link)It only leads to entitlement when a person only apply it to themselves. Taking it as a given that everyone experiences fandom differently, I must say that the vast majority of people I have encountered who have that kind of entitlement are the people who have brought it in from the rest of their lives, such as the antis who think their morals should dictate things to everyone else. They are, thankfully, a (vocal) minority. Most people who understand that no one owes anyone anything understand that authors don't owe fic just as readers don't owe comments.
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 03:13 am (UTC)(link)OP even explained that they did that in the hopes that the writer would be motivated enough to finish, not because OP felt obligated to encourage the writer/show appreciation. Hence not commenting on the final chapter, even if they loved it.
I don't think that guilting readers into commenting every time would be helpful, but I do think that readers taking a moment to consider showing appreciation after spending sometimes hours devouring someone's hard work would improve the fandom environment.
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 03:39 am (UTC)(link)The thing that always strikes me with these types of comments is that:
A) Hits do not equal reads. We have no idea how many readers there actually are on any given fic, therefore we cannot say the ratio of reader to comment and-
B) Of the places where such data could be taken, fanfic engagement is actually BETTER than most. The average percentage of engagement across all platforms is 1% or less. The average engagement on -
Facebook: 0.06%
Instagram: 0.47%
Twitter: 0.035%
Since we can't tell how many hits are actual readers, we have no way of telling how many readers actually engage with the work, but the fic I have open right now has 307 comments from 17,187 hits. Which is a 1.78% engagement. And that assumes that ALL of those hits actually read through the whole fic, which is a really bad assumption to make so the engagement rate is actually higher. Twitter would KILL to have that engagement rate.
Source: https://www.rivaliq.com/blog/social-media-industry-benchmark-report/
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 04:18 am (UTC)(link)I'm not looking at hits--I'm looking at Bookmarks and Subscriptions. I consider Hits to be a rather useless metric and I don't pay much attention to that. I know a ton of people are reading my fic with each update, particularly because some of them had the clever idea to include chapter-by-chapter summaries for themselves on the public Bookmarks. But very few directly comment.
I don't think comparing engagement on Big Social, where the aim is often to promote a product and the Company/Celebrity will never actually respond back in a meaningful individual way, and AO3, where fans passionately create free content and get nothing in return, is fair. (Not to say that passionate fans aren't also on Big Social, obviously, but they don't represent 100% of it.)
Like, why do you think Twitter as a company would KILL to have that engagement rate? For warm fuzzies, a sense of community, validation? No, it's for money.
I think there are MANY reasons as to why readers wouldn't comment (some of which are because of rude writers, honestly), and I have no interest in guilting anyone. I just think that readers should stop and consider it at least once and decide whether that's something they'd like to contribute to the community--engagement and support to the writers.
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 04:35 am (UTC)(link)You mentioned readers, not bookmarks or subscriptions. Hence the hit rate. Same argument applies. Bookmarks and subscriptions do not guarantee that someone has read it. Many people use them as a way to come back to a fic that they've either decided to read in the future, or read and enjoyed enough that they want to come back and read it again. Neither of them are any kind of reliable statistic about if something has ACTUALLY been read.
Comparing engagement on Big Social is absolutely a meaningful comparison BECAUSE they're doing it for money. They want as much engagement as possible. They lie, cheat, and steal to get engagement. Companies, especially on Twitter, have been called out several times as propaganda machines because they engage back with people in ways that entertain to try and make you forget that they're a multi-national conglomerate and not your friend. High engagement is exactly what they're looking for. And they can't get near the engagement that people who "passionately create free content and get nothing" (except engagement and validation and support and community) "in return."
So now that we agree that Twitter would kill for that engagement: Of course it's for money, as if they gave a shit about anything else. It's still engagement beyond their wildest dreams. This thing that would make Twitter envious (if they could make a buck off of it) is apparently not meeting the expectations of people who don't have the money and the advertising team that gets that 0.03% engagement rate.
The whole point of the statistic is that if you're getting a better engagement rate than a multi-national conglomerate with millions of $$ and an entire social media team in the pursuit of the almighty dollar, and you're UNHAPPY with this? You need a reality check.
Also this:
Lie. You said you had no interest, and then just... did it. Right there. See it? It's right there.
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 04:41 am (UTC)(link)I would consider subscriptions to be more accurate representations of active readers than hits, but alright then. I also don't see how asking people to consider commenting, while knowing there are endless reasons why they'd end up deciding not to, is guilting anyone, but alright then.
You're getting really intense and personal and I'm not sure why. Like... "...and you're UNHAPPY with this? You need a reality check." What was the point of this jab?
I don't see the point in opening myself up to further personal attacks by discussing it further, so...bye?
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 04:54 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 05:16 am (UTC)(link)Oh yeah, I know they aren't /actually/ accurate, but I would consider them more representative compared to something like Hits. Hits include people who misclicked, turned back after the first chapter, were bots crawling the page, etc. whereas Subscriptions are from people who actively wanted to get email notifications at some point. For me, even when I plan to finish a fic later, if I'm getting two subscription emails before I can catch up, I just unsubscribe and mark for later instead because I loathe unnecessary emails.
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 05:21 am (UTC)(link)You know it's reliable, becausd it uses math
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 05:37 am (UTC)(link)I assume this is rather sarcastic but I will say that's why I've been puzzled by some scripts for AO3 on GreasyFork and the like. Why are we introducing square roots and decimals into the (literal) equation? On what basis do those make any sense? Way too many variables for me to feel confident doing anything funky to the raw numbers.
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 04:58 am (UTC)(link)That was the general you, not you in particular. I don't even know if you're a writer. If so, and you felt it was you specifically, then you might want to ask yourself if you are unhappy with how people engage with your fic and why that might be.
So you just think that people read something they really like, and are presented, right there, in front of their face, with an option to tell the author that they liked it, either through kudos (one button) or comment, and they STILL don't "stop and consider at least once and decide whether that's something they'd like to contribute to the community -- engagement and support to the writers"?
You don't see that loaded language? "Stop and consider"? As if everyone is just racing to consume as much content as possible without thinking about anything at all. "At least once"? As if they never have before? "Contribute to the community" As if they haven't been doing so. "-- engagement and support to the writers" as if writers WERE the entire community.
I also don't see the point in communicating further with someone who doesn't see their own guilt tripping. So bye. Please try to understand what good metrics are before you disappoint yourself with awesome engagement.
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 05:28 am (UTC)(link)"I don't even know if you're a writer."
Uh...well, that was enough to get another reply from me, because...
"I know a ton of people are reading my fic with each update, particularly because some of them had the clever idea to include chapter-by-chapter summaries for themselves on the public Bookmarks."
But while I'm here anyway... I said that because I was pretty much exactly like the person you describe as some absurd hypothetical. I just devoured fics and didn't even leave kudos when I was obsessed enough with it to discuss it with friends. But then I saw some posts from writers saying how much they appreciate comments, how it makes things feel more like a community, and that it's very motivating when people show appreciation for their passion. That made me reconsider my approach to reading fanfiction. I don't comment every time and I only read WIPs if they're written by a friend but I think it makes for a much more positive experience when more people engage--and when they realize that's something that most writers appreciate.
That's also why I mentioned that writers contribute to this attitude. After a writer replied rather rudely to my own comment (apparently I missed some foreshadowing from a chapter uploaded 6mo earlier so they actually scolded me for not reading closely enough), I didn't comment again for ages. I also see posts from more popular writers saying they don't want one-word comments, or emoji comments, or what-have-you. All of that contributes to an environment where readers who would otherwise love to comment might choose not to.
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 06:29 am (UTC)(link)There's very few wrong ways to do fandom. We can't hold everyone to the same standard. No one does it, or even CAN do it, the exact same way. You have to curate your own experience - like you were doing. Reading fic and then discussing with your friends. Absolutely nothing wrong with that! That is also contributing to the community!
And absolutely, getting crap from writers does discourage engagement. And having people try to guilt engagement WILL also discourage it, which, I'm sorry, is what you were doing by making it seem like it's a very easy thing to do and people just couldn't be bothered. It's not always easy (see yesterday's comment about anxiety disorders) and many people have reasons not do (as you have described). Yet you still said it. Knowing this you still said it in that way with a preface that you "don't want to guilt trip" (but...)
The point of my original comment with the stats was to show that the fandom community as a whole actually IS really nice and that writers are doing most of this to themselves.
When you know what good engagement looks like when someone's livelihood literally depends on it, seeing writers with three times that engagement on a hobby complaining that they don't get enough - an expectation re-adjustment is in order.
But you didn't respond to that. You tried to discredit the numbers with an argument that made the numbers even stronger. And then you tried to make it an ad hominem. Now you've switched your argument to the opposite side. So at this point, I have no idea what you're trying to accomplish.
*I* am trying to get authors to understand that they're already getting amazing engagement. Authors, please stop measuring yourselves based off a misunderstanding of what good engagement looks like!
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 02:27 pm (UTC)(link)These would be amazing engagement levels and very much sounds like readers are engaging and supporting writers.
Looking at my own fics, it does seem to depend on fandom/overall reach of the fic - the fics with the lowest # of bookmarks are also the one were the ratio is the best - on some fics I have more comments than bookmarks. My fics in big fandoms have the worst ratio, but even there it's 15-30%. Again, if these were the actual numbers I'd find the griping about comments even pettier but I think ayrt's 1% is far more realistic. So I find your argument here really confusing.
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 03:49 am (UTC)(link)And frankly, this makes me sad. I'm not saying things were perfect in the old days, but people seemed a lot freer with sharing how much they enjoyed a fic rather than a one-way street where readers consume it eagerly, then vanish without a word. I've never NOT commented positively on a fic I enjoyed, not because I felt obligated, but because that just seems like a pure, good fandom experience? And I think more people felt that way, back then.
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 03:52 am (UTC)(link)And I'm not saying that you're wrong, but this is the kind of thing that we as humans are most prone to misremember and inflate and smudge over when we think back on the past.
And there generally still are a fair number of comments on fic! Ime at least.
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 05:46 am (UTC)(link)I used to write fanfiction back when I was 12yo (shhh, don't tell them) and I got SO much engagement even though my fanfic was...well, written by a 12yo. I made a bunch of friends, I was invited into special communities, I was mentioned by other writers as a source of inspiration, etc. and I didn't even think twice about how cool that was at the time.
When I got back into writing fanfiction a decade later, my writing was much better, but I didn't get even a fraction of the engagement. Honestly, my first guess was that my then-fellow-12-year olds were just very excitable and eager to engage with my oh-so-relatable writing and songfics. But I think there's been a lot of speculation about how the fandom community environment has shifted, particularly with Big Social's influence.
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-21 02:02 pm (UTC)(link)In the days when you had to email the author to comment? Maybe .1% of people bothered. The first "comment" I ever left was an email to the author of my very favorite fic, which was the most popular one in a huge fandom, rec'd everywhere, and she emailed me back effusively saying it was so great to get feedback because she almost never heard from readers.
The difference isn't that fewer people comment now; the difference is you can actually tell, because we have ways to know they're there other than comments.