Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2023-06-16 06:21 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2023-06-16 06:21 pm
[ SECRET POST #6006 ]
⌈ Secret Post #6006 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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[From]
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[Youtube channel "Hello Future Me"]
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[Monark]
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09. [SPOILERS for Across the Spiderverse]
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10. [WARNING for transphobia/standard JKR stuff]
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #858.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-06-18 08:29 am (UTC)(link)Several different sides are asserting "the other one" is causing the preventable deaths of children. And have been for some time. Your side (I'm assuming this is the TRA I'm replying to, because they've been rather strident) claims that kids who aren't given whichever mix of affirmation, drugs, and surgeries they think they need will 100% definitely commit suicide, though the statistics on that have been entirely contradicted by later studies, and also that if they wind up living as the opposite sex and committing suicide later on, it's definitely the fault of society for not accepting them well enough. Minority stress.
I'm not going to cover the Republican bullshit because I consider it regressive nonsense and they trumpet it everywhere anyway.
But the version of can't-actually-prove-this-isn't-happening (though I hope not) that makes me uncomfortable goes like this. Young people are having to deal with endocrine disruptors in the environment and a huge rise in chronic illness and a culture that's suffused with a mood of apocalyptic despair. They look at the future and think "no." They look at the adult world that's waiting for them, and get quite sensibly depressed. But society tries to repackage all that as an individual-level problem: change yourself and you will be happy. Change yourself, and then acceptance will be yours. And a lot of them do, because they're miserably unhappy, but the treatment does very little of what it was supposed to do for them. And things that they used to take for granted in their own body don't work and will never go back to the way they were again. But what now? They fought for this. They insisted it was what they wanted and needed. And their whole community is claiming that No One Regrets It. With the implicit threat that if they do, after having burned bridges with family, friends, etc. they will also stop having LGBTQIA+ community people they can turn to. And if they commit suicide because they really don't see any way forward, that's likely counted as another tragic, trans death, and used to argue for more medicalization.
Maybe people like you shrug and argue that if they made it past their 18th birthday, they don't really count anymore as "kids" that died, and they're not really your problem. But, to people who find out about cases like this, what they went through is indeed blamed on their being assured that it would only get better for them if they transitioned. And the more of them screw up their courage and admit they were wrong about something that society communicates very clearly that only an idiot could go through with *by mistake,* more people who were doubting quietly feel like they can speak up. So it snowballs.
That's what I'd guess other!anon meant when they asked you which side was causing the deaths of children.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-06-18 02:25 pm (UTC)(link)Let's look at what REAL WORLD stats show. That means they are VERIFIABLE and REPLICABLE.
Kids who say they're trans - ok? We can agree that there ARE kids who say they're a different gender, right? Cause someone upthread was questioning that as well, but we have trans adults saying they KNEW at 5, 6, 7 years old. Right, so we're agreed there ARE in fact trans kids.
So, when you have a trans kid you can do one of two things:
You can force them to conform with your society's concept of their assigned gender at birth - this is what we've been doing for decades, so we have LOTS of data on this. Those kids had a very high suicide rate in comparison to their peers. Notice I said RATE. Because in science, we look at this in percentages. If you only look at gross numbers, of course NON trans kids will have a higher suicide count, because there are a LOT more of them. So we look at rate. Got it? So the RATE is very very high compared to their non trans counterparts.
Other option - you can affirm, and let them make choices about how they present themselves to society and, here's the important part, let them make choices about their bodies. Give them ALL the information we have and let them make an informed choice. We've tried that for maybe 15 - 20 years, in pockets of places, usually cities. The suicide rate for trans kids PLUMMETS when we do this. It's more in line with the rest of their peers who commit suicide because they
So. On the one hand, we can keep doing what we have been for decades, with the higher suicide rate. Or we can do the thing we've been trying recently, which has brought the suicide rate more in line with everyone else who lives in this depressive capitalistic hellscape.
Is the current system perfect? HAHAHAHAHAHAH FUCK NO. No one would agree to THAT. Some people who transition regret it, but less than FUCKING KNEE SURGERY. Some people who survive suicide attempts ALSO regret not completing them. It happens. And we need to listen to those people to understand what is going on. Because while they are an EDGE case (less than 1%), they are still human and deserve to feel comfortable in themselves and hopefully not suicidal (as much as is possible in the US at least). But this modern system is LOADS better than what we HAD. Because... it, uh, saves kids' lives.
So there you are! One side, which shows supporting human rights to wear whatever clothes they want, whatever hair style they want, and YES, get whatever medical treatment they want (and in this capitalist hellscape, can afford *sob*). Or the other side, where there's a highER suicide rate for young people who are not allowed to do that.
I hope that clears things up and now you can go forth and make more ethically sound choices!
no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-06-19 09:11 am (UTC)(link)We're agreed that there are kids who say they're trans and adults who say they're trans. And I'm not interested in limiting what anyone else can do with themselves.
... yes, I see. With a large population and a small population, the only fair way to discern what's going on is to look at the proportion, not the number. Hence your emphasis on comparing rates of suicide.
I don't agree that the only choices we could make are "forcing people into restrictive, sex-based gender norms" or "authoritatively state to them and their parents that they were indeed born in the wrong body (this is what affirmation is, AFAIK), and that there are a plethora of medical treatments to remedy this situation." As if feminism never happened, as if gay people don't exist, and as if trans people need to squash their chests or genitals and alter their endocrine system and remove body parts in order to be "allowed" to have the personality and gender presentation they were born with. So, you know, also as if trans people as they were before all this plastic surgery took off were sadly "deprived" of the medical leash inherent in most of the interventions that are recommended to them now. And as if the rest of the people this affects are going to indefinitely tolerate being exhorted to pretend this is the only enlightened way to proceed.
"Affirmation of being born the wrong sex" is not "giving them all the information we have" by such a long shot. It's not even admitting how much is unknown about the long term effects of attempting to avoid puberty, with these kids, and then redirect it with cross-sex hormones. Follow-up studies have uncovered serious deficits in the development of bone density, particularly in trans women. Even when these things (and a lot of others) become known, though, it's needlessly difficult to circulate the information. TRAs have taken it upon themselves to advertise the studies that best endorse medicalization, and tried to shout down everything that isn't ringing praise. But the only consent that's worthy of the term is informed consent. And we need that, if we're going to convince anyone that legislating bodily autonomy away from people is not the way to go.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2023-06-19 04:54 pm (UTC)(link)They're not meant to. They're meant for emphasis. Real world data that is verifiable and replicable always trumps your opinion. Sorry, that's just how science works.
Yes, that is it exactly. I've seen 3rd graders get this so the idea that you don't is kind of alarming. I was trying to be as basic in my terminology and explanations as possible, though apparently not basic enough.
And we have our first issue. You say AFAIK and you are completely wrong about that. See, we live in a society that has a certain view on gender and it's almost impossible not to incorporate that as we grow. Sometimes what we WANT falls into another category and so we would like to move over there. Sometimes what we want is in the middle and we would like to be in the middle. Sometimes we want the whole category thing to just fuck off and let us be. Some trans people just want social transition. That is gender affirming care. Some trans people want top surgery but not bottom. That is gender affirming care. Some people want bottom surgery but not top. That is gender affirming care. Some people aren't trans, but find part of their body gives them gender dysphoria, such as breast augmentation. That is what gender affirming care is. It is allowing people to have the body that they feel most comfortable in. It doesn't force men to become women. When a man comes and says, hey, this part of my body makes me deeply uncomfortable ALL THE TIME, gender affirming care says, okay, we can take a look at the options and see what will make you feel better. So all of that world view you have that gender affirming care is gender essentialism is wrong and everything that flows from it is wrong. So I will not be addressing the parts of your argument that rest on it.
There isn't a whole lot that is unknown, considering we've been doing this with cis kids since the 1980s. So, that argument is false.
I vaguely see this point. But medical information circulated through a community comes with a lot of risks of MISinformation circulated through the community. Yes, please, talk about your lived experience and let others know what they can reasonably expect (though do NOT guarantee as all people are different) but that is information that needs to be given to you by your medical professional. Because, as I said, each person is different and they have the expertise to help you evaluate your opportunities and risks of each treatment option. This is NOT something you want to get from randos. Which leads into the issue of:
Agreed. The issue with gender affirming care as I see it is the same issue we're having with medical care in general, in that doctors are having a hard time with the "informed" part of informed consent. It's not something special to trans people, or gender affirming care specifically, either for affirming the gender assigned at birth or an affirmation of transition. The culture has changed from the 1950s where you did whatever the doctor told you and ethics boards didn't think informed consent was necessary. Now medical care has become a partnership between doctor and patient, and that naturally will come with some growing pains. Thankfully they are aware of the problem and are working on studies to figure out the disconnect and how to solve it.