[ SECRET POST #6014 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #6014 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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[20 Minutes Until Dawn]























Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 44 secrets from Secret Submission Post #860.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I'm sure there are reasonable criticisms to be had of AO3,

Yes. There are.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

Well.... we're waiting....

[(Anonymous)]

Well, basically, there are a bunch of problems with AO3 and OTW that OTW has been chronically unable to address in a timely manner for structural and organizational culture reasons, and I think that's bad.

Some of those are problems with the way that AO3 operates as a fanfic archive. For example, the lack of a system for canonizing freeform tags - that's a huge issue for AO3's usability as an archive, it's been a problem for I don't remember exactly how long but I think at least 5 years, and it's taken forever to address it in a meaningful way (and the problem isn't a lack of resources or manpower, because there's a ton of manpower for tag-wrangling). Other things are more organizational - for instance, there's a chronic deficiency in resources, support and outreach for non-English language volunteers and users. And there's a really troubling lack of safeguards and abuse protections for volunteers, and an absence of things like dispute resolution and conflict management resources, or people to basically serve an HR function, and an internal tendency to treat issues that do arise as fandom power struggles. And that's all really bad for volunteers and ultimately for the site and the organization.

So it's things like that, where there are real problems with the way that OTW operates, and the existing organizational structure has been extraordinarily slow and deficient at addressing them. And then people just circle the wagons, regardless of what criticisms people are actually making, and act like that the only people who criticize AO3/OTW are antis who dislike age gap ships, or whatever.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

So, you're a member and are voting and going to meetings and the like, yes?

[(Anonymous)]

SA

I'll take this as a no. You fake being passionate about this issue very well.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

So, you're out there speaking out against the people who are actively and with intent sending CSAM to the volunteers and posting CSAM maliciously in the archive to try and get it shut down. The people including an ex-volunteer stirring waves to get AO3 into legal trouble. One person who is allegedly the founder/owner of this very website you're using to talk on right now? Because those are the actual offenders, not AO3.

Yes, these volunteers should have support resources, I agree. At the same time, they wouldn't need those support resources if there weren't people out there actively trying to get AO3 taken down and into legal trouble by using CSAM deliberately to cause harm.

[(Anonymous)]

... NAYRT and haven't commented in this thread before, but I assume this is wankbait.

I know fuckall about the person who founded Dreamwidth except that I've read their takes on problems both inherent in and specific to running social media and other websites that seemed well informed and not wanky, going back awhile now. I seriously doubt they want to destroy Ao3, or that the volunteer you're accusing of heinous shit ... idk, faked their way into volunteering for a thankless job for what sounds like a long time to set up a nonprofit volunteer version of corporate trojan horse sabotage?

And your take just seems weirdly culty and conspiratorial because I assume any website that hosts content from the public at large will eventually attract asshole creeps and trolls posting illegal shit (by which I do not mean fictional incest, underage sex, rape etc) trying to ruin things for people who want to use the site as designed.

Even if assholes were actually posting CSAM to try and sabotage the site, so long as it was promptly removed and reported as required by law, it wouldn't actually pose a threat to Ao3.

The people pointing out that Ao3's treatment of volunteers and handling of (again, actually illegal, not fictional) CSAM have room for improvement aren't the same people trying to get, idk, fic where Winnie the Pooh and friends gang-bang Christopher Robin taken off the site.

And of course there should be measures to protect volunteers and make their lives easier in place, the whole fucking org is all volunteers.

[(Anonymous)]

Do you have any evidence - a speck, a scintilla, of evidence - that the people you're accusing of sending the CSAM are actually the ones who did that?

Because if there isn't any evidence, then it's absolutely despicable to make these kinds of accusations. It's despicable even to make veiled insinuations without evidence, let alone making actual accusations.

[(Anonymous)]

Wow, I was not expecting to see this take in the wild. The ex-volunteer in question was the only person on the volunteer team with experience handling CSAM and was then kicked off the volunteer team. The owner of this site offered expertise in dealing with CSAM on social media sites (as they worked for LJ) and was turned down. I am also an ex-volunteer (I quit due to health issues, before all this started, and was not exposed to CSAM myself) and they're right that the structure of the site and how volunteers are managed is deeply fucked. And changing the Board (elected officials) may not help unless they can deal with the Chairs (unelected and more powerful and blocking hiring actual experts). This is the kind of problem most non-profits encounter as they grow, but the attacks using CSAM have to make reform of the volunteer structure a priority.

[(Anonymous)]

SA

Thank you! This is extremely helpful information (and I'm sorry if you felt provoked into sharing it or anything.) I still think AO3 is only half the equation and whoever is behind the CSAM attacks needs to be stopped as well. (My poor wording I know makes it sound like it's the ex-volunteer and the CEO when it wasn't and that was my poor wording and my bad. Sorry.)

Thank you for sharing again. The type of information going around is not helpful to AO3 or resolving anything. And I do hope the chairs listen and get around to reform the volunteer structure. Because that's important but alas, non-profits are also notoriously slow about change (and some ways that is by design.)

[(Anonymous)]

You know, maybe this is just me, but if I seriously, truly thought that someone was using CSAM to attack another website and hurt people instead of it being an accusation that I was flinging out like it was something trivial with zero proof, I would not continue using their website.

DA

[(Anonymous)]

Yes you would, as long as you could do it anonymously.

[(Anonymous)]

Allegedly. Something about innocent until proven guilty. If he's even involved at all.

(I also believe he's only part of the legal aspect of it in bringing it to the feds attention. I don't believe he's sending CSAM himself. The wording there is definitely bad.)

So according to you, even though I said allegedly and would rather think he's innocent until solid proof comes out, I should just drop this site like a hot potato? Okay. Nice high ground. Hope you follow it.

[(Anonymous)]

I think that AO3 should take a copyright case all the way to the Supreme Court. Mainly because I would laugh so hard when this SCOTUS slammed them down so hard in favor of family values and traditional interests, that would be fucking hilarious day. There is a reason AO3 has suddenly got a lot less combative over stripping creators of their copyrights lately, it is because they know they would lose hard. Creators should have the right to decide whether they want fanfic or not allowed, and if someone creates fanfic then the copyright should remain with the original property creator. And SCOTUS believes that too, as AO3 knows.

[(Anonymous)]

Um. No, that's not how copyright works....

[(Anonymous)]

Er... copyright has never worked like that? Intellectual property law =/= copyright law.

[(Anonymous)]

You cannot "strip a creator of their copyright" by writing fanfiction. It's just not at all possible, never has been. If someone creates fanfic, the copyright of the original work does indeed stay with the original creator, always has. If I write Marvel fic, Marvel very much does still own the copyrights to those characters whether they approve of fanfic or not, and I have no idea why you think that's not the case.

[(Anonymous)]

Don’t argue with Anne Rice’s ghost.

[(Anonymous)]

And the award for most confused and nonsensical take of the day goes to...