fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #6130 ]

[ SECRET POST #6130 ]

⌈ Secret Post #6130 ⌋

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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

"maintaining such control" is part of what i said. do you think once an area is settled the effects of colonialism is over?

here's some questions I'd love for you to answer:
what would materially change if "y'all" was suddenly appropriate for formal occasions?

who decides and maintains what is "formal" and what is "informal"?

That's not a colonialist thing. The southern culture is full of people who would be considered the colonizers and they still use a dialect that is not standard. See: me.

What would materially change if "y'all" was suddenly appropriate for formal occasions? Another world would become the informal. And we'd be having this conversation again for THAT word. Because there will always be formal and informal words.

Culture maintains formal and informal. It has changed significantly over the years, including what constitutes a formal occasion. It's a cultural zeitgeist. The government doesn't decide, captains of industry don't decide, high school principles don't decide. People now wear jeans to the opera, which would have horrified my grandparents. My supervisor, in the fourth largest corporation in our industry, has purple and blue hair, which would have horrified my mother if she were still working. My team mates and I communicate with each other by memes whenever we can get away with it, but we write our official procedures, reports, emails to clients, etc etc, using the standard spelling and grammar. Which, btw, also changes as the culture changes.

The southern culture is full of people who would be considered the colonizers and they still use a dialect that is not standard. See: me.
okay what about this situation do you think distinguishes it from colonial maintenance? i'm reading this as you saying that if descendants of colonizers are subject to control, then it's not colonialism, which isn't how control or maintenance works (see any other system of oppression which also binds the grand majority of people it privileges), so correct me if i'm reading you wrong.

Another world would become the informal. And we'd be having this conversation again for THAT word. Because there will always be formal and informal words.
so there's no material difference then. yes that's my entire point. there's no material difference and yet certain things are designated to one or the other. you've written a lot about things your parents and grandparents would have been scandalized by and nothing about the result of that affront. why would scandal matter, what are you trying to convey by virtue of that reaction? if mere feelings were the only reaction, what was stopping people from doing it before?

Are you implying that social pressure is akin to just somebody's feelings? Because no.

No I asking that user to be clear about the social effects of formality/informality and not use feelings as a signifier

okay what about this situation do you think distinguishes it from colonial maintenance?

I think you're conflating two different things here. Descendants of colonizers are not subject to control from other descendants of the same colonizers when in the same country specifically AS A FORM of colonialism. They may be subject to control as a form of some other kind of oppression (eg, classism) but definitely NOT colonialism. Colonialism necessitates population displacement, i.e. settling colonies, hence the name colonialism. If there were a concerted effort of a bunch of Yanks coming down and forbidding any of us from ever using the word "y'all", THAT would be colonialism. Having a standard of language use in professional settings that match across the country regardless of location is NOT colonialism. You also wouldn't use the word "wicked" in professional communication, which is commonly and informally used in New England.

. you've written a lot about things your parents and grandparents would have been scandalized by and nothing about the result of that affront. why would scandal matter, what are you trying to convey by virtue of that reaction? if mere feelings were the only reaction, what was stopping people from doing it before?

My parents and grandparents would be scandalized because that kind of behavior would get you to be a social outcast and/or unemployable. It's not shock for the sake of being shocked. My point was, that those kinds of things, by virtue of being seen as informal and unprofessional, would have either gotten the person doing them ejected from the opera or fired from their job.

This is not colonialism because there IS still to this day a standard of professionalism, they're just different as culture changes. We have moved from static, visible standards (see: tats and hair dye), to more often looking at language and conduct (see: karens harassing black people in the park; execs acting rude on planes; people being racist on twitter). My point is that this is not COLONIALISM. This is how culture WORKS.

SA

Forgot, I am AYRT.

Having a standard of language use in professional settings that match across the country regardless of location is NOT colonialism.

People are conveniently ignoring the fact that it's downright NECESSARY. I used to work for the US branch of a foreign company, meaning that most of the employees were from that country and thus were ESL. Their English was quite good and they had no problems making themselves understood or understanding standard English, but they struggled to understand regional dialects and accents because they had never encountered them before. If someone were to use "wicked" in professional communication with them (to continue your example), they would be very confused and possibly even insulted because they learned the standard meaning of that word and not the slang one, so they would interpret the use of "wicked" as being a negative thing rather than a positive.

Language standards are necessary to ensure that everyone is on the same page when it comes to communication.

AYRT

This.

okay so why aren't you learning the language of the foreign company? what isn't the flow of communication in the language of the company your branch belongs to?

... because the branch of the company was in the US and the people working for the company would have to interact with other people from the US who didn't work for the company and would have no reason to need to know the language of the other country?

Seriously, what the fuck even is this comment. You're just trying to be an asshole at this point.

No I'm not conflating two things, I'm asserting that maintenance of power requires that everyone, including the people who are privileged by it, mostly adhere to the rules it creates. This is a pretty well documented enforcement mechanism of social power.

If there were a concerted effort of a bunch of Yanks coming down and forbidding any of us from ever using the word "y'all", THAT would be colonialism.
oh i get it, you think there are no victims of colonialism left here in the south.

either gotten the person doing them ejected from the opera or fired from their job.
yes, and this type of thing is condoned or forbidden by the same powers who existed in colonials times. for isntance virginia's biggest landowners are still in prominent positions in virginia society!

AYRT

Standardization of language is not some weird conspiracy to maintain power. It makes life easier for everyone who speaks that language. Honestly, at this point, it feels like you just need to argue about something. If you think we don't need standardization of spelling and grammar, go ahead and start spelling and writing sentences in a non-standardized way right now and see how quickly people will stop reading it.

I'm done. At this point I have a feeling you're being deliberately obtuse and are looking for a fight.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #6130 ]

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