[ SECRET POST #6153 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #6153 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


All secrets today have spoiler/content warnings attached.



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01. [SPOILERS for Slay the Princess]




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02. [SPOILERS for Pact]




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03. [SPOILERS for Final Fantasy 16]




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04. [SPOILERS for Our Flag Means Death]




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05. [WARNING for discussion of violence, transphobia, abuse, child abuse; Ezra Miller]




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06. [WARNING for discussion of RL war/genocide/etc]



























Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #879.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Well, it's the only country in the middle east that's actually democratic and inclusive, so I'm not sure why some people like the OP hate it, but I guess centuries of an actual religious minority being oppressed and killed everywhere else in the world for two millennia isn't enough of a reason for them to have ONE COUNTRY (where there's evidence of them being indigenous before that) where they can be safe.

TL;DR you're feeling sorry for the wrong "victims" here.

[(Anonymous)]

Nayrt
Look, I hate Islamist terror groups and Islamist dictatorships as well but it's also pretty silly to pretend the current Israeli government isn't a theocratic fascist bunch of assholes. I just wish it would be possible to discuss this conflicts in shades of grey but as soon as you say maybe both sides suck you get people from either camp screeching at you that you're anti them and pro the others.

[(Anonymous)]

No apartheid state can be a democracy. Israel is an apartheid state. They're not a democracy. They're not inclusive.

Israel =/= Jews. Israel refuses to allow non-white Jews "right of return" even when they're being persecuted because they're Jews in their own country. They're an ethno-supremacist terrorist state.

And no, they can't have one country when having that country means conducting a genocide on the people they stole most of their land from.

TLDR: Israel are not the "victims" here.

[(Anonymous)]

Netanyahu's government has taken some steps that could lead to an apartheid state, and should be opposed. But as it currently is, non-Jews can become citizens, and have full rights under the law when they do, including the right to vote.

Are people of MENA descent considered white?

What does it mean to have "stolen" the land? Whose land is it, really? Is there a statute of limitations on that? If modern-day Palestinians are driven from the land, and in 2000 years they'd like to come back, will we say, "no, you are stealing this?

That's always the tough question when it comes to the history of conquest and colonialism, right? How far back should we go to decide who the real "owner" of the land is? And what do we do with all of the people who've lived on that land in the interim?

Speaking of people who have lived in the area in the interim, what should be done about the Misrahi Jews that were living in the area all along? Do they have a right to be there?

While the treatment of people in Gaza and the West Bank is terrible, I don't think it's properly understood as a genocide.

[(Anonymous)]

Netanyahu's government has taken some steps that could lead to an apartheid state,

Could lead? It's been there a while. See Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution


What does it mean to have "stolen" the land? Whose land is it, really? Is there a statute of limitations on that? If modern-day Palestinians are driven from the land, and in 2000 years they'd like to come back, will we say, "no, you are stealing this?

Are people living on the land when you forcibly enter their houses, kill their families, burn their crops, destroy entire villages that have been there for decades if not hundreds of years? Then that, my friend, is stealing land.

While the treatment of people in Gaza and the West Bank is terrible, I don't think it's properly understood as a genocide.

Here are the stages of genocide:

I. Classification
​
ii. Symbolization
​
iii. Discrimination
​
iv. Dehumanization
​
v. Organization
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vi. Polarization
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vii. Preparation
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viii. Persecution <--- Israel is somewhere
​
​ix. Extermination <--- between here.
​
x. Denial

So... what, you wanna wait until the Denial stage before calling it genocide?

[(Anonymous)]

Are people living on the land when you forcibly enter their houses, kill their families, burn their crops, destroy entire villages that have been there for decades if not hundreds of years? Then that, my friend, is stealing land.

Then there is no one on that land who hasn't stolen it, which is the entire point. It has been the sight of one conquest after another for 2000 years. Whose land is it, anon? Who, of all the groups that have lived on it and fought one another for it, is most deserving of it? Who is the most innocent?

You have not answered whether people of MENA descent are white, nor have you answered whether Misrahi Jews, who have "been there for decades if not hundreds of years" are allowed to be there. Is it their land, or do they not count?

So... what, you wanna wait until the Denial stage before calling it genocide?

No, because this is incendiary nonsense. Attacking a group that you are at war with is not genocide.

You know what probably is, though? Attacking a group that you've declared yourself to be dedicated to wiping off the face of the earth, no matter where they live. Guess who did that?

[(Anonymous)]

lmao israel an apartheid state. it's not like south africa was. get a grip.

[(Anonymous)]

Not all apartheid states are going to be the same, because the circumstances are different. Read a book. There are links up there to show that Israel is in fact an apartheid state. Unless you think you're more of an expert than Amnesty International and the Human Rights Watch? Because, lmao.

[(Anonymous)]

Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch do have their biases, though.

Human Rights Watch has long faced criticism, including from its own founder, about its selective approach, e.g. its reluctance to call out human rights abuses in non-Western countries; and its credulousness when gathering accounts from witnesses on whichever side they support. They have a tendency not to fact-check eyewitness statements, and to not take opposing testimony into account.

When it comes to Israel, Amnesty classifies all Arabs living in the country as "Palestinian," regardless whether they actually are Palestinian or identify that way, and have used that classification to conflate all Israeli Arabs (and Palestinians who are Israeli citizens) with Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza. The "apartheid" label relies on this, as it makes it look as if a 5th of the population is denied rights based on ethnicity or religion, when that isn't actually true. Does this mean that the treatment of people in the West Bank and Gaza is good, or justified? Absolutely not! But it does shift the issue from a matter of ethnicity/religion to a matter of location, as a Palestinian living in East Jerusalem enjoys rights that a Palestinian in Gaza does not. And when members of the group that are said to be denied rights are able to vote and sit in parliament, it complicates the picture.

[(Anonymous)]

Go hang your head in shame, then hang yourself.

[(Anonymous)]

I mean I would describe myself as a moderate here. But when you look at the Israeli approach to settlements and Palestine over the last 15 to 20 years, it's impossible for me to deny that the Israeli state has engaged in wildly inhumane treatment of Palestinians and encouraged policies that amount to apartheid.

Frankly, it's impossible to imagine any peace agreement that would allow for peaceful humane coexistence so long as either Likud or Hamas remains in power.

[(Anonymous)]

+1. Over my lifetime Israel has become an apartheid state. It hasn't always been one, and that's not the only way forward (in fact many of the Israelis killed or abducted in the October 7th massacre were pro-peace - it's the West Bank where right-wing Israelis have been taking land recently). Hamas is a terrorist organisation even among its own people and has done absolutely nothing to bring about co-existence because they only want to destroy Israel. There is no simple oppressor/victim narrative here and a lot people seem unable to deal with that.

[(Anonymous)]

This. I find it absolutely wild that Jews are trying to scream about being persecuted when that's literally exactly what they've been doing to Palestinians for YEARS.

[(Anonymous)]

That isn't true of Jews. It's true of the state of Israel and Israelis. Those are two different groups.

[(Anonymous)]

Then the Jewish people need to stop blindly simping for Israel because ime it's impossible to criticize anything Israel does without people acting like you're anti-Semitic.

[(Anonymous)]

Jews??? A you for real

[(Anonymous)]

And I find it absolutely wild that people only care when Israel kills Muslims. I just wonder: where were all the masses of people protesting now in the past when Muslim leaders and terrorist groups were killing their own people in droves? Been strangely silent. And it's not like several Muslim countries and individuals don't keep calling for the genocide of all Jews.

[(Anonymous)]

Are the Jews recently attacked by a mob in Russia responsible for the persecution of people in a different country?

[(Anonymous)]

Israel. Israel is trying to scream antisemitism after persecuting Palestinians for decades. Israel=/=Jews.

[(Anonymous)]

this entire conflict is two millennia of "no u"

[(Anonymous)]

you win this thread

[(Anonymous)]

I suppose taking a stance for democracy, women's and LGBT rights in the Middle East is "Islamophobic". 🙃 (A term which which is very dubious btw, because no culture, religion or ideology should ne above scrutiny. And Islamic political practices have given more than enough reason to question them.)

[(Anonymous)]

I'm sure the queer people of Palestine agree with the bombs that are going to murder them because Israel pays lip service to the idea of queer equality. 🙃

Oh, wait...

"We refuse the instrumentalization of our queerness, our bodies, and the violence we face as queer people to demonize and dehumanize our communities, especially in service of imperial and genocidal acts. We refuse that Palestinian sexuality and Palestinian attitudes towards diverse sexualities become parameters for assigning humanity to any colonized society. We deserve life because we are human, with the multitude of our imperfections, and not because of our proximity to colonial modes of liberal humanity."

https://gael-garcia.tumblr.com/post/733534212591927296/a-liberatory-demand-from-queers-in-palestine

[(Anonymous)]

Take this post-colonial discourse back to the privileged American kid dwelling base, aka Tumblr, it doesn't impress anyone here. (Also, if you're American, how about you go back to your REAL country and give back ALL the resources to the Native people? And don't start with the 1% Cherokee nonsense.)

The quote above doesn't speak for those who are tortured and murdered in the name of a shady religion. And yes, it's common sense to judge a culture which executes dissenting women and queers. To anyone who cares about the above groups at the very least, not a cultural relativist who loves defending oppressive practices which never touched them personally.

[(Anonymous)]

Apart from the fact that I sincerely doubt that quote came from queer people currently in Palestine, it rather misses the point, which is not that it's okay to bomb Palestine due to its treatmemt of LGBTQ people. The point is that the fact that Israel is wrong to bomb Palestine doesn't mean Palestine is itself not an oppressive state.

This is not a simplistic, binary case of "oppressor vs oppressed." Trying to treat it as such is not the path to justice that people imagine it to be.