[ SECRET POST #6461 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #6461 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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07. [WARNING for discussion of abuse/rape/etc]




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08. [WARNING for discussion of abuse/rape/gore/underage]















Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #923.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I'm genuinely curious about what the fandom here is. Does it have canon or prominent f/f pairings? Or does it have canon or prominent m/m pairings? Cause I genuinely couldn't come up with a female skewing fandom right now that has more m/m fics. As someone who has never cared about men whatsoever, I have always gravitated towards fandoms with more female characters and looking through them (Supergirl, She-ra and the Princesses of Power, Warrior Nun, Willow TV to name a few), all of them have nearly only f/f pairings in the top ten, some f/m but absolutely no m/m anywhere to be found. As a caveat to this, I have never been interested in anime, so nearly all of my knowledge is based on western live action or animated shows of the last few years (cause that's when a ratio of 2/3 in favor of women got more prevalent). Yes, there are far far far fewer shows with majority female casts, but in my experience, those shows do skew towards an audience that prefers female characters and generally ships them, so f/f is of far higher quantity with neglectable m/m.

But of course, this is only my experience and I'm not questioning yours, I'm just genuinely baffled because with a ratio of 2/3 in favour of female characters, I would indeed expect a fandom where f/f should dominate. But again, there are factors like canon pairings, fandom interests etc, that might change that. I just really would be curious as to which fandom this is and why it still skews in an m/m direction.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, same experience with female dominated canons. I do prefer m/m, but usually fandoms with a lot of women has women-loving crowd

[ariakas]

I also have to ask what fandom this is. I have the same experience as you: female-dominated (or even mixed or male-dominated fandoms where the female characters are more central, more interesting, or more shippable) always have more f/f than m/m, in my experience (from way back in ye olde days of Sailor Moon, to western cartoons like Korra, to bro!sci-fi like The Expanse or Scavenger's Reign, to modern shows and manga like Yellowjackets and Dunmeshi).

I hear OP's complaint from people all the time, but I've yet to ever see it be reality, which really begs the question: vastly different spheres of interest, different view of what "well-rounded"/"interesting"/"shippable" mean, shit-stirring, or garden-variety misogyny (the womens are doing fandom wrong! shame! shame! no, I will not see the many fandoms where this is not the case nor will I make my own content, you must provide it for me and you're problematic if you don't!).

[(Anonymous)]

Off topic, but I haven't heard about Scavanger's Reign, but it looks interesting!

Also I was thinking about shows like Yellowjackets and I am absolutely bewildered by what fandom OP is in

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Yeah, I didn't want to be mean, but my first thought was literally 'so is this fandom strawman that absolutely definitely exists in the room with us right now?' Cause I've seen complaints like this as wank bait trotted out ad absurdum and they absolutely are not congruent with what I know of shows that actually have majority female characters, or like you said, even those that don't and still have the women front and center, which is absolutely reflected in fic (like Legends of Korra, which very much doesn't and still only has one m/m ship in the first 10 relationship tags on AO3 and 3 f/f ships).

I'm genuinely so so tired of 'oh the poor f/f fans, they don't get anything because of bad bad m/m writers'. No. I'm doing fine actually, thank you very much and stop using me as strawman. Also, I'm not talking for all f/f fans, so don't use me as strawman for the other side either. Just, can you stop with the whole 'people need to write things that are less popular' shtick? It doesn't help anyone. I write what's hot to me. That happens to be f/f only. Deal with it.

[(Anonymous)]

SA

I realize that now I was very mean actually. Sorry about that. If that show indeed exists and if all those buzzwords in the secret 'fleshed out, backstories, current storylines' are not just that, buzzwords, please take my sincere apologies. As I said, I do not want to tell you your lived experience is untrue just because it's incongruent with mine, I just got burnt one too many times by this kind of wank bait.

[ariakas]

I know what you mean, I've seen it as wankbait so, so much that I have my doubts. The fandom is conveniently never named in these secrets, so no one can ever verify whether or not the statement regarding whether or not its female characters really are centered or sidelined is actually true. Convenient!

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

That and also, frankly, whether the 2/3 ratio is actually true throughout the entire show. Cause like, yes, there are shows like that, like you said, Sailor Moon and the shows I've mentioned (not Supergirl or Willow though, they're already not actually applicable), but they very much are not the norm. Because it means for a 'large cast' that there have to be eight (8!) women to four (4) men (or similar numbers). And even Warrior Nun and She-ra just so manage that (I think Pretty Little Liars and Yellowjackets might too, but I've never gotten into those shows and again, f/f is very much front and center for them with m/m nowhere to be found). I also looked into anime a little now and the two I know where female characters outnumber male characters (Madoka and Little Witch Academia) have all f/f as well, absolutely no m/m.

I don't know if this is a case of 'if there are the same amount of women as there are men, it feels like they outnumber the men 2 to 1' but it's kinda confusing. I would really want to know the show because, well, even if I don't watch all shows with majority women (I do have tastes beyond just 'women'), I would like to know about them.

[ariakas]

Yeah I wonder also if op has actually sat down and counted numbers of characters and hours of screen time, because people overcounting women is a real, studied phenomenon. People will see a group consisting of 25-33% women and describe it as 50/50, and see and actual 50/50 group and describe it as women-majority. That's probably what you're talking about right?

Cases where they actually are majority (both in number and screen time) are rare, and when they do happen (like Sailor Moon or Yellowjackets or Madoka), f/f is always hugely dominant over m/m. But most shows aren't like this - most shows are exactly the opposite. So is it a surprise they attract an m/m-favouring crowd and m/m works?

It's not the fault of the mostly queer afab people in fandom that we live in a patriarchy, so most published media is male-dominated.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

That's probably what you're talking about right?

That's exactly what I meant, yes. People see four women in one scene and go 'wow, that fandom is women-centric', ignoring the five men in all of the other scenes. Yes, this has happened very much to me personally (though it was an actress saying that about her show and I was like, okay, if you say so).

Cases where they actually are majority (both in number and screen time) are rare, and when they do happen (like Sailor Moon or Yellowjackets or Madoka), f/f is always hugely dominant over m/m

Yeah, exactly, as an anon above said, if the show is actually female centric, a whole different fandom will gravitate to it and will indeed write majority f/f. But since most shows aren't like that and most people aren't me, who has only ever been in any show for the women and has been in the sci fi and fantasy trenches of 'there are one to three women to eight men, so if I get one scene I actually like (cause the women are prominently in it), I am very lucky and if it passes the Bechdel test I rejoice' for 30 years now. Most people, most straight women who write fanfic, actually like men and therefore write what they see and what they get and more power to them.

Yes, we live in a patriarchy and yes, those shows are far and few between, and yes, I am lucky with having the ones I have now and having the fandoms that come with it and all the f/f fanfic I could want (seriously, there's so much. There are thousands of fics, more than I could read in a lifetime, why would I even want to compare it to the numbers of m/m?). But no, I do not care for trying to trot out a hypothetical show to, what, make people 'examine' their preferences or something like that?

If you want that, do it honestly, say, 'what makes you write m/m instead of f/f' and most people will answer that they prefer men, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with 'male characters are better written' cause somehow I managed to only ever care for female characters and only ever write and read about female characters as far back as 30 years ago (and I'm not the only one, there's many people like me in my fandoms).

People like male characters. Women like male characters. Probably more people/women than those who like female characters. And part of that is most definitely societal and it's interesting to interrogate that, but not in this disingenious way. I genuinely would never ever see any lack of f/f if I didn't venture beyond my fandoms, because I simply don't go to fandoms where f/f is the minority (anymore, cause I don't have to).

Just let people enjoy what they enjoy and if you want to talk about the societal aspects and politics of it all, just say it plainly, don't use a strawman show that most likely does not exist (in this form).