Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
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fandomsecrets2009-11-17 06:18 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2009-11-17 06:18 pm
[ SECRET POST #1047 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1047 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
101.
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102.
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103.
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104.
[Evil Dead]
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105.
[Bill Nye The Science Guy]
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106.
[Doctor Who]
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107.
[Tipping the Velvet]
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108.
[True Blood]
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109.
[Sons of Anarchy]
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110.
[Supernatural]
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111.
[Jensen Ackles, Danneel Harris]
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112.
[Nate Ruess/The Format/Fun]
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113.
[I Love You Phillip Morris]
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114.
[Red Dwarf / Mighty Boosh]
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115.
[90210 / The L Word]
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116.
[Animal Crossing]
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117.
[Helen Mirren]
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118.
[Vocaloid - Toeto]
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119.
[Where The Heart Is]
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120.
[Pushing Daisies]
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121.
[High School Musical 3]
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122.
[Pokemon]
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123.
[Criminal Minds/Glee]
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124.
[V]
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125.
[Doctor Who, Avatar, Naruto, Firefly/Serenity, NCIS, Push, Repo]
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126.
[Zelda CD-i]
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127.
[Dexter]
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128.
[Gamer]
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129.
[The World Ends with You]
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130.
[The Black Donnellys, Kings, House, Cloverfield]
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131.
[Time Hollow]
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132.
[Legend of the Seeker]
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133.
[Meryl Streep/Jane Lynch/Glee]
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134.
[Scrubs]
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135.
[Alias Comics]
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136.
[Torchwood]
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137.
[Torchwood/Good Omens]
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138.
[Morning Musume]
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139.
[Marieke Hardy]
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140.
[Scrubs]
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141.
[Francesco Borromini/Giovanni Lorenzo Bernini]
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142.
[X-Factor]
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143.
[The Mentalist]
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144.
[Tim Roth/Jack Roth]
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145.
[Tales of The Abyss]
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146.
[Beavis and Butthead & Inglorious Basterds]
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147.
[Sophie's World/Giant Robo: The Day The Earth Stood Still]
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148.
[Phoenix Wright (Ace Attorney)/ Ryū Sasakura (Bartender)]
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149.
[Neopets: The Darkest Faerie]
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150.
[Josie Lawrence]
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151.
[Matthew Bomer/Zachary Quinto/Lee Pace]
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152.
[Flash Forward]
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153.
[Joyce and Walky]
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154. [SPOILERS for Pokemon D&P Adventure]
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155. [SPOILERS for Pokemon]
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156. [SPOILERS for Harry Potter]
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157. [SPOILERS for Glee]
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158. [SPOILERS for Supernatural]
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159. [SPOILERS for Jennifer's Body]
[Jennifer's Body, Supernatural]
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160. [SPOILERS for Umineko no Naku Koro Ni]
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161. [SPOILERS for The Lost Battalion]
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162. [SPOILERS for Heroes]
[Heroes/Chrono Trigger]
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163. [SPOILERS for Persona 3 Portable]
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164. [SPOILERS for Uncharted 2]
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165. [SPOILERS for Pokemon]
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166. [SPOILERS for Kara no Kyoukai]
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167. [SPOILERS for Something But They Didn't Tell Me What]
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168. [SPOILERS for Orphan]
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169. [SPOILERS for YuGiOh! 5D's]
Notes:
THIS goes into effect starting with Submissions Post 151, as secrets were posted before the poll went up last week.
Secrets Left to Post: 11 pages, 275 secrets from Secret Submission Post #150.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
I don't see Castiel as a hypocrite and IMHO the thousands of years that he spent pretty much as a drone really are extremely meaningful and necessary to understand his character. He's not human and expecting him to just be able to throw off what had been his literal reason for being, especially when to question was to rebel, and to rebel was to be like Lucifer, seems unfair to me. I've heard people complain that he gets too much of an excuse for his behavior because he's not human, but it is what it is. I see nothing wrong with acknowledging that.
He's not perfect and definitely makes mistakes. They're remarkably apparent when he tries to pass himself off for human (5x03 was full of these) but we see him make them just as himself as well. Look at his decision about Jesse, for instance; he had a point about the kid being insanely powerful and the danger he could cause if he was kidnapped by the demons, but even if he were right to kill a child (and in Supernatural, killing kids is NEVER the right answer), he got his ass handed to him by the nine year old because of the method he chose.
As for consequences, I sort of file having been murdered as a major response to his actions... If you're talking about that he released Sam in 4x21, I really, really hope that gets addressed as well, even though I've little hope for it. Supernatural is the show that glossed over the huge conversation where Sam discovered that Dean broke the first seal, after all, and stuff like that is of FAR more emotional and plot impact to me than that Castiel let Sam out, especially since Castiel refusing would have meant that he couldn't have released Dean in 4x22 and Zachariah would just have sent someone else to open the door for Sam anyway.
no subject
Sense! You make so much of it!!
no subject
...I've got to ask though, what is that behind Castiel in your icon? Wings? Feathers? A couple of swans swimming next to each other on a silver sea? Curious minds want to know! *grin*
no subject
no subject
no subject
Er, original OP but not secret!OP?
(Anonymous) 2009-11-18 03:36 am (UTC)(link)the thousands of years that he spent pretty much as a drone really are extremely meaningful and necessary to understand his character. He's not human and expecting him to just be able to throw off what had been his literal reason for being, especially when to question was to rebel, and to rebel was to be like Lucifer, seems unfair to me.
I agree. Add that to him being completely alone of his species, he'd be twice as stiff and fumbling. He'd burned his bridges and his existence was ruled by obedience. Anna is gone, and Dean is human: he has literally no one who can understand what he's going through right now. He doesn't have his own Sam/Dean to make the journey bearable.
I've heard people complain that he gets too much of an excuse for his behavior because he's not human
I also agree with this strongly. He does not get a free pass, and he does not have the moral high ground to be the authority, which he thinks he does.
He's not perfect and definitely makes mistakes.
*I* knows this, and agree. Much of it is that the fans really have ruined Castiel for me. Before I re-entered fandom after getting caught up I enjoyed and was intrigued by him, but the pillar fandom put him on and refusing accept his faults as anything other than 'awwwww' just. Turned me off to the point it's bled over into when I see Castiel on the show, which saddens me, because I have *never* had this happen to me before (where fandom affected how I see a character). Between that, horribly inconsistent writing on angel nature (host selection for instance, and the difference between 4.01 and 4.20 and 5.01), and shitty writing to use the character as a bad joke (much of 5.03), I...eurgh. Killing a child is not cute, fandom, no matter how guilty he felt doing it! Yes, I want him to answer for letting Sam out with the intent that Sam would let Lucifer rise, or at least get to Ruby and enable his addiction and blow up the remaining threads between Heaven's Chosen, Dean, and his brother, until Michael!Dean eventually killed Sam, which was more or less Zachariah's ominous plan. I suspect Sam might even have already put together that an angel, not necessarily Castiel, let him out after he saw the full truth. He was already suspicious of how he got out of a demon room in 4.21. However, he probably sees that night as his choice to leave, crazy and detoxing though he was, and doesn't bother to correct Dean thinking Ruby bust him out. If he *has* suspected Castiel, from the tension in 5.06, again, he probably feels that he doesn't want to make waves with someone Dean currently trusts and Sam's already shown he'll clutch at allies for the war.
As far as death, what the eff *is* death for an angel? Humans have souls, but so far as we know SPN-biblical canon is still consistent that humans are special to this and angels are not.
Supernatural is the show that glossed over the huge conversation where Sam discovered that Dean broke the first seal, after all
And the stupid voice mail, where Dean thinks Sam rejected his olive branch, and Sam thinks Dean could actually hunt him, feeding his paranoia Dean's love has always been conditional at best and only tied into loyalty to John.
especially since Castiel refusing would have meant that he couldn't have released Dean in 4x22 and Zachariah would just have sent someone else to open the door for Sam anyway.
This falls flat for me. That Castiel was 'only a victim of circumstance' does not give him ample wiggle room to be let off.
Er, original OP but not secret!OP?
(Anonymous) 2009-11-18 03:57 am (UTC)(link)the thousands of years that he spent pretty much as a drone really are extremely meaningful and necessary to understand his character. He's not human and expecting him to just be able to throw off what had been his literal reason for being, especially when to question was to rebel, and to rebel was to be like Lucifer, seems unfair to me.
I agree. Add that to him being completely alone of his species, he'd be twice as stiff and fumbling. He'd burned his bridges and his existence was ruled by obedience. Anna is gone, and Dean is human: he has literally no one who can understand what he's going through right now. He doesn't have his own Sam/Dean to make the journey bearable.
I've heard people complain that he gets too much of an excuse for his behavior because he's not human
I also agree with this strongly. He does not get a free pass, and he does not have the moral high ground to be the authority, which he thinks he does.
He's not perfect and definitely makes mistakes.
*I* knows this, and agree. Much of it is that the fans really have ruined Castiel for me. Before I re-entered fandom after getting caught up I enjoyed and was intrigued by him, but the pillar fandom put him on and refusing accept his faults as anything other than 'awwwww' just. Turned me off to the point it's bled over into when I see Castiel on the show, which saddens me, because I have *never* had this happen to me before (where fandom affected how I see a character). Between that, horribly inconsistent writing on angel nature (host selection for instance, and the difference between 4.01 and 4.20 and 5.01), and shitty writing to use the character as a bad joke (much of 5.03), I...eurgh. Killing a child is not cute, fandom, no matter how guilty he felt doing it! Yes, I want him to answer for letting Sam out with the intent that Sam would let Lucifer rise, or at least get to Ruby and enable his addiction and blow up the remaining threads between Heaven's Chosen, Dean, and his brother, until Michael!Dean eventually killed Sam, which was more or less Zachariah's ominous plan. I suspect Sam might even have already put together that an angel, not necessarily Castiel, let him out after he saw the full truth. He was already suspicious of how he got out of a demon room in 4.21. However, he probably sees that night as his choice to leave, crazy and detoxing though he was, and doesn't bother to correct Dean thinking Ruby bust him out. If he *has* suspected Castiel, from the tension in 5.06, again, he probably feels that he doesn't want to make waves with someone Dean currently trusts and Sam's already shown he'll clutch at allies for the war.
As far as death, what the eff *is* death for an angel? Humans have souls, but so far as we know SPN-biblical canon is still consistent that humans are special to this and angels are not.
Supernatural is the show that glossed over the huge conversation where Sam discovered that Dean broke the first seal, after all
And the stupid voice mail, where Dean thinks Sam rejected his olive branch, and Sam thinks Dean could actually hunt him, feeding his paranoia Dean's love has always been conditional at best and only tied into loyalty to John.
especially since Castiel refusing would have meant that he couldn't have released Dean in 4x22 and Zachariah would just have sent someone else to open the door for Sam anyway.
This falls flat for me. That Castiel was 'only a victim of circumstance' does not give him ample wiggle room to be let off.
Re: Er, original OP but not secret!OP?
(Anonymous) 2009-11-18 03:58 am (UTC)(link)Re: Er, original OP but not secret!OP?
He doesn't have his own Sam/Dean to make the journey bearable.
Exactly! I kind of think fandom was worried/hoped (depending on which part of fandom you were in, natch) that Dean would become, well, Castiel's Dean in the same sense that he's Sam's Dean. And since Dean isn't really Sam's Dean in the way he was in S1, it seemed like there was potential for that to happen.
IMHO though, it didn't happen. In part because I don't think Dean want's to be anyone's Dean right now, he wants to be his own man, but also because Castiel might be struggling for understanding right now but following Dean's advice in S4 wound up getting him killed and Lucifer was still released. I think Castiel thinks quite highly of Dean, but 5x06 proved that Castiel won't blindly follow him when he thinks Dean is wrong.
he does not have the moral high ground to be the authority
I agree with this, to an extent. I think he no more believes himself to be "the" authority than Dean or Sam do (or Zachariah or Lucifer, for that matter). He definitely doesn't get a free pass. Just like Sam and Dean, I want to see Castiel own up to his errors and recognize that he's screwed up and then work to rectify his mistakes.
We might just be hanging in different areas in fandom, but I haven't seen that much selective blindness when it comes to Castiel. The worst I've come across is a tendency to write him as exceedingly helpless in Castiel whump fics, so Dean or sometimes Sam can come along and save him, usually right before bedding him. I usually prefer my Castiel fics gen and he's not my usual favorite target when it comes to whumpage, so those sorts of stories generally don't appeal to me. Those are the ones where he seems to come across as overly perfect, IMHO, but since I've no interest in them to begin with, I generally manage to avoid them.
As far as death, what the eff *is* death for an angel?
That's a really good question! I get the impression that when Castiel was killed, he simply was not, as it were. Like the pure form of an angel is something like the pure form of a soul - something that can only be seen by those with sight beyond the veil. Like Pam, for instance. That's why it was such a huge deal when Castiel was reborn - it should have been impossible. It really was a miracle, even on the angelic level.
And the stupid voice mail, where Dean thinks Sam rejected his olive branch, and Sam thinks Dean could actually hunt him, feeding his paranoia Dean's love has always been conditional at best and only tied into loyalty to John.
OMG, SO THIS. The fact that we've gone so far into the season and not have the voicemail referenced once is extremely irritating. Even if the truth didn't come out, you'd think that something of such MAJOR importance for Sam and Dean's relationship would have been at least mentioned!
It's things like this that cause S5 to not quite work for me. The voicemail, what Castiel did, the issue with the first seal - there's so much that's going on that's simply being lost and brushed aside as unimportant. Kripke & co have had an issue writing decent emotional follow through since S1, but with something as important as the brothers' relationship, something that used to be described as the "third main character of the show", you'd think they'd pay more attention to what they're doing!
That Castiel was 'only a victim of circumstance' does not give him ample wiggle room to be let off.
Oh, agreed! I want to see Castiel brought up for it and if I were writing the show, Zachariah would use that as a means to drive a wedge between Dean and Castiel. I just don't have faith anymore that it will be remembered. I mean, if things as thematically important as the voicemail can be forgotten, then I've not much confidence that we'll ever see resolution for what Cas did. :(
Re: Er, original OP but not secret!OP?
(Anonymous) 2009-11-20 04:13 am (UTC)(link)Yeah normally I'm not anon but when it comes to Castiel I've become paranoid. Probably unnecessary because LJ is no where near as fierce as TWoP, but sometimes I just don't feel confident and yeah. D:
Love all your replies. This especially:
Zachariah would use that as a means to drive a wedge between Dean and Castiel.
Has given me some more to think about, and pine for in canon and fic!
Yay for 5.10, my Castiel-is-a-pretty-good-character flags are back out. Thank you writers. ;D