fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #6946 ]

[ SECRET POST #6946 ]

⌈ Secret Post #6946 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Heated Rivalry]

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[Shinsetsu Mahou Shoujo]

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[Stranger Things]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 46 secrets from Secret Submission Post #992.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

It's not about awkwardness. It's about the greater potential for men to be creepers.

Those are just propaganda lies. Men are gonna be creepers no matter if they are allowed in or not.

AYRT

I don't see how it's propaganda or a lie to say that if you allow men into a space where women get naked, they're going to have an easier time getting away with being creepers than if you prohibit them.

Because the men who would do something are going to go in anyway. Most men are just going to do their own thing and be fine.

It is also a scare tactic that turns all men into predators and women into helpless victims that need protection. To be perfectly honest, the only people I ever see seriously worried about this are transphobes or misogynists.

AYRT

I've never liked that argument, because from that it follows that we shouldn't have laws or rules at all. After all, bad people don't follow laws, and good people don't need them, right?

But the reality is that laws *do* stop a lot of people from doing things that they'd otherwise do, because they don't want to face the consequences. It's the same with something like a single-sex space: yes, there are bad actors who ignore the rule no matter what, but there are many others who are deterred by it, because breaking a rule has consequences, and because they are *immediately* going to stand out, and be perceived as a potential threat. In an environment without the rule, not only is there no deterrent, but a bad actor who enters the space can use the fact that they're allowed to be there as a cover.

I think it's disingenuous to say that only transphobes or misogynists could be concerned about this. Not all men are predators, and not all women are helpless victims, but there are reasons that women are more likely than men to be victims of sexual assault, more likely than men to be victims of DV, and more likely than men to be killed by their partners. Men are, unfortunately, physically bigger and stronger than us, and they're more violent than we are! It doesn't help anyone to pretend that that isn't so.

I've never liked that argument, because from that it follows that we shouldn't have laws or rules at all.

This is a very "slippery slope" type of argument that I've always found bizarre and derailing.

AYRT

I don't see how. Why would the logic that this specific rule doesn't deter bad actors not also apply to other rules? And in any case, it is in fact generalizable: despite there being laws against various things, people still do those things. What makes it a slippery slope argument?

Yes yes, men are big and scary and bathrooms are a big scary places rife with assault.

AYRT

This is a childish response.

A sign on a door is not going to stop a man who wants to hurt someone.

AYRT

It's easier for a man to hurt someone if there are no barriers to his entry at all.

If you see a man in a woman's only locker room, then you have cause to get him ejected before he does anything. If it's a mixed gender lock room, then you have to wait until a man actually does something awful to get him ejected, and there may be creepy behaviors from men you have to put with, because well, they're allowed to be there. It can be framed as your problem rather than theirs.

Yes, bad people overstep boundaries and break rules. It doesn't follow from that that we should have no boundaries and no rules. We still have both, because their existence acts a deterrent, and can allow us to spot and deal with bad actors more quickly.

What kind of fucking barrier is a sign? The only real barrier that stops someone from hurting another person in a locker room is stalls that can lock, otherwise there is absolutely no guarantee of safety at all.

I've also been creeped on and groped by other women in locker rooms so don't sit here acting like men are the only problem. Most people are fine and won't hurt others, the ones that will are going to find ways to do so.

AYRT

To me, saying "what kind of fucking barrier is a sign" is like saying "what the fuck is the point of a stop sign."

The "sign" is the announcement of a rule. If you ignore the sign, then you break the stated rule, and if you break the stated rule, then it's easy to eject you, and you're also announcing almost immediately that you're a bad actor. If there's no stated rule, then not only is it harder to eject you, but you can use the lack of a rule as a cover for bad behavior.

I'm sorry you're had women be creepers to you, but men are far likely to be that way. It's a shitty reality, but it is reality.

... Oh wait I've engaged with the transphobe troll haven't I?

I'd say have a nice life but I don't think that's something you're capable of given that you spend your free time doing this.

AYRT

Yeah, it's really easy to just say "this person must be a transphobe" than to actually try to listen to what I'm saying.

I have a perfectly nice life, in which I don't immediately assume the worst of the people I'm talking to, and try to respond to what they're saying, and not something that I've made up in my head.

nayrt but to be honest, you are sharing some points that are consistent with that of the troll who is apparently scared to death of a penis in a locker room to the point they have painted all trans women as obvious predators (which is largely a lie and plays into rhetoric that puts trans women at even more risk), so it's not too surprising they reached that conclusion.

I'm not saying you're that troll. But you may have some hangups about people with penises that you may or may not have unpacked, and that is potentially harmful to trans women (and frankly, cis women as well).

DA but I completely disagree with you. I read that penis therad. It's linked somewhere here. That anon stressed that they don't think all trans people are evil. So not onlydo you build a strawman out of this anon's argument but out of that one too. It seems to be a habbit of yours.
The writing style is completely different and it's pretty obvious that not all anons are one anon. Why would you even think that it's one same anon everywhere when the points expressed are pretty cockie cutter and won't even get a raised eyebrow anywhere but a few soft science colleges.

AYRT

There's a lawsuit out of California from a prison that allowed men to be housed with the women. The men terrorized and assaulted the women -- one of which was a transwoman. She's a party to the lawsuit.

Transwomen are also sexually assaulted more often than men and are more likely than men to be victims of DV. It is absolutely consistent with trans rights to be concerned about men getting carte blanche to enter women's spaces, because transwomen can be and also are victims of abuse.

And being concerned about men doesn't mean thinking everyone with a penis is a bad person! I don't lock my doors at night because I think everyone in my neighborhood or my town is a burglar; I lock my doors because it's a simple, reasonable precaution to take against the few people who are burglars.

da

Stop using trans people as "gotcha!" response to anything and everything, please. If you can't actually find an argument to what anon posted, then don't reply at all. I see this accusation all the time here, and personally, I find it a lot more phobic that what is being responded to most of the time.
You don't have to listen to me, but I thought I'd ask anyways.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #6946 ]

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