Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2010-02-04 05:21 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2010-02-04 05:21 pm
[ SECRET POST #1126 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1126 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 078 secrets from Secret Submission Post #161.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
Also, I asked him if he would want it done and he said yes, so it's not just an assumption on my part, though obviously the reason is because he's Jewish, not because he would want the kid to look like other kids (an excuse many people make, which is actually the opposite of why Jews get it done) or because of "cleanliness" issues or whatever.
A side note -- one thing I learned while researching circumcision (for this paper I had to write in college) was that it wasn't typically done in the United States until around WWII, and one of the reasons people wanted it done was because they thought that it would discourage masturbation in males. The extent to which Americans in the post-war era were uptight about sexual issues is horrifying, to say the least.
ETA: I'm just glad to see that you have the same stance on body modification for both men and women, instead of being like a lot of women I talked to in college who generally though that male circumcision was okay but that female genitalia was to remain completely off limits. What a double standard.
no subject
And if he wants it done and you've no objection then... fair enough.
I'm against both so, y'know, even though I'm against the female one it's not hypocritical. Hadn't thought on it that way before but you're right. And yeah, I'm one of those odd 'feminists', though I'm sure some would refuse to call me that, where I believe women should be equal. As in treated equally where at all possible. I swear, sometimes it seems as though half the feminist movement isn't out there to get equality but superiority.
I'd heard it becoming popular in the US was because of that. Makes sense, for all that we Brits are supposed to be the stuck up and proper ones you guys can be the puritanical ones at times. Yes, lets go mutilate the bodies of our babies for no reason other than to stop them masturbating - which didn't even work.
*headbangs*
no subject
even though I'm against the female one it's not hypocritical
DISREGARD I NEED TO LEARN HOW TO READ. Obviously I read too fast.Well, considering that the foreskin and the clitoral hood are about the same (in gestation the fetus either develops a penis or clitoris, or sometimes something inbetween, but it's basically the same) I think clitoral hood removal and circumcision are the same, except nobody in our society expects women to get theirs removed (and keeping in mind FGM is something else entirely, that would be akin to scraping a dude's balls off with the remains of a rusty coke can and sewing it up without sterilizing anything).
When I was writing my paper I came across the writings of some women who voluntarily had their clitoral hood removed and said (like some cut men claim, but again, YMMV) that it made clitoral stimulation easier and more intense (of course, you can just pull back the hood when you stimulate the clitoris, and it retracts when the clitoris is stimulated, just like with the penis' foreskin). Of course, I realize how hypocritical I am because I wouldn't get my daughter's clitoral hood removed (though I would think that would be difficult to do in childhood anyway) but I'd be okay with circumcising my son (though not okay with the complete removal of the foreskin). :/ So I don't really fault you either way.
The official reason why Jews do it is because it's a physical sign of your covenant with God, which, of course, excludes women (maybe there's some crackpot Jews out there who remove the clitoral hood but I don't know of any). Of course, it would be easier to tell if a man is circumcised than a women in that case. It's kind of like eating kosher -- the entire point is that it's different (and sometimes inconvenient) because it's a constant reminder that you're different from other people. Not necessarily better, but that you have a unique relationship with God and you're expected to abide by certain laws that other people don't.
no subject
But I'm a great big atheist, tend to think think that there's a more likely explanation for how it all started than , ah, God, coming down and demanding men mutilate their penises to show their devotion. Though given some of the other stuff in that book it's not out of character. And it seems reasonable that it started off as a cleanliness thing.
End excluding women is not exactly a new thing, nor one isolated to Judaism and circumcision.
no subject
TMI?
no subject
I haven't heard of men over here being worse off in health in that regards compared to men in the US where it's common. So it can't be that great, and if you wash properly it doesn't seem to really matter.
ETA: Don't worry about the TMI. It isn't like it's TMI about a specific person who hasn't given their permission for it. It's more in the biology field of things so seeing this from an academic PoV. Probably helps that unless I'm getting into the headspace of someone else I only really see them as silly looking organs males spend a lot of time thinking on or as a part of biology.
Son of ETA: And not to say that there's no difference, but from what I've read different reports say different things and there's medical pros and cons on both sides. None of which seem to be that great in all so long as men was themselves properly.
no subject
I spend a lot of time thinking about dicks, too, (female here), and I don't find them silly looking at all. Rather attractive, actually. Especially when uncircumsized!
no subject
Was thinking about adding in women talking about penises cause they do but figured you'd had enough edits already lol.
Maybe one day there will be firm data pointing in one direction but it seems doubtful. Till then it's a matter of if you think it's right to put a baby through that when they can't give permission or not.
tl;dr: Genital Mutilation Bad
But I have heard such STUPID reasons for mutilating baby boys!! There's the old standby "I want him to look like me/his dad" (because heaven forbid we should simply explain to the kid that Daddy's foreskin was cut off and his wasn't), or that it prevents penile cancer (it drops the rate by about one third-- from about 3 per 100,000 to 1 per 100,000 so really, not much point) to-- and I swear to god I was standing right there-- "My mum's a nurse in a nursing home and she says that when the guys get over eighty some of the uncircumcised men have trouble keeping themselves clean and get UTI's so I want him circumcised to prevent that." >< Okay, points for looking ahead, but why cut off perfectly healthy tissue and risk damage to his penis (not to mention the pain the poor kids go through-- it's usually done without anaesthetic) and the loss of sensation from having their diaper and clothes abrading the unprotected glans all the time-- why do all that, just so that IF he lives to be eighty and IF he ends up in a nursing home and IF he ends up having trouble keeping himself clean he doesn't RISK UTI's?? I mean, kudos for looking ahead, I guess, but of all the dumbass reasons... >
Re: tl;dr: Genital Mutilation Bad
It's one of those areas where it's kinda hard respecting the rights of other parents, of other beliefs all the while having a giant fundamental objection to it all.
And seriously, whilst the old person thing might be a valid reason to be cut when you're older there is NOTHING stopping him from getting cut closer to the time.
Re: tl;dr: Genital Mutilation Bad
Haha she looked at me a bit funny because I was sort of butting in on her conversation (but she was standing right there), but I think the doctor talked her out of it anyways because as I left he was going, "Well, you know, it really isn't necessary and we don't usually do it..." Ah, the joys of hospital stays lol. (she came up to the counter at the nurses' station while I was standing there myself and was like, "Hey, while I'm here, can we just do this too?" XD
I hear ya about the religious stuff. On the one hand, I really honestly truly do object to it (one of the grandmas in my son's playgroup told me her like one-month-old grandson was getting "done" the next day and I tried to (nicely and politely and not pushily because after all, it isn't my kid) to give her an alternate point of view, but I don't think I changed her mind and I'm pretty sure they had it done. ): I honestly felt like barfing and it was really hard for me that day (haha I really do feel very strongly about it being done to babies)-- but not my kid).
I am extra-sensitive to the rights of parents, though, especially when it comes to religion, because I am not a mainstream religion myself and it isn't too long ago that me and my husband being Heathens would have been grounds for child protection services to step in and remove our kids (because, you know, white and following a pagan tradition = OMGSATANISTS!! ><), so I'm reeeeaaaally careful about respecting others' rights, the same as I want them to respect mine. But I don't have to like it. :P
In other news, the rate of circumcision in Canada has dropped dramatically; I think my generation was the last one to get it done routinely ( a lot of my younger friends aren't cut), and our Medical Services Plan no longer covers it because it's not a medically necessary treatment. Means that if you want it done you have to cough up the $150 or whatever it is yourselves, which might discourage people who are on the fence, which is good.
(haha cut for length; continued below)
Re: tl;dr: Genital Mutilation Bad
Sadly, I heard that the States is considering making it mandatory as uncut guys apparently pick up HIV more easily (apparently there are receptors on the underside of the foreskin, according to Wikipedia, at least). This is really stupid and makes me deeply unhappy, because WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH TELLING GUYS TO WEAR A GODDAMNED CONDOM!!?! >< Mutilating babies against their parents' wishes to "prevent" a virus that (a) isn't completely prevented by circumcision (yes, the incidence drops but isn't eliminated, and in the case of something deadly let's make sure, shall we?)and (b) IS prevented by using a condom is the height of arrogant stupidity, to me.
Years ago (about ten I think) there was a move to outlaw genital mutilation in the States. People (senators and stuff) were all gung-ho about it as it pertained to girls (what?? Chop perfectly healthy bits of their genitals off?? Of course that's wrong! Where do I sign?" but as soon as they realized that it would apply to circumcisions as well they backed right off. So apparently what's sauce for the goose isn't sauce for the gander, after all. I think it did get passed, but modified to specifically forbid female genital mutilation, but not male. *Sigh...*
I don't get the "Ew" factor, myself. I think they look tidier with them, and I'm told it makes for better lovers, because (a) being more sensitive, orgasms don't sneak up on them the same way, so they can slow down as needed, and (b) dude, the foreskin ridges up. You know those condoms, "ridged for her pleasure"? Yeah, like that. XD So ladies, there's an excellent reason to not cut; their future girlfriends (and hell, boyfriends too probably lol) will thank you. XD
Me, I didn't get my son cut, and have simply been teaching him, pretty much at every bath since he was born, that at some point when he pulls back on his foreskin his penis will pop out, and then he'll need to clean under there too, just like he does everywhere else. Been telling him about condoms and what they're for since he was born too, haha (not constantly, but every now and then when the subject of babies comes up). Not gonna have any of this embarrassed, "Son, we need to have a talk..." three years after he's started having sex in my house... XD
Haha, sorry; MUCH tl;dr. XD Also got my 11 notifications from LJ too so now I feel all loved. lol
Re: tl;dr: Genital Mutilation Bad
I'm British so generally we're better at that sort of thing but we do get our own crazy incidents. I'm an atheist and one of the girls I went to school with, though she was the year below, was a pagan. We used to joke that she was the Stantist and I was the godless Heathen. Just to take the piss. We didn't have it too bad though, there were a couple other non religious people there, Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims along with the Christians and Jews. Strangely we didn't talk about our beliefs much so I don't know much about paganism. Not exactly sure what the difference between it and wicca is actually. Oddly (insert sarcasm) they didn't mention the new age stuff, alongside the atheist view, in RE (religious education, compulsory from age 11 to 16).
I know it's been harder over there for a while and probably still isn't all that easy. Hopefully it'll continue to get better for you and other religious minorities. I didn't realise they were likely to take your children away before though.
Except in extreme circumstances I am against medical actions on an unconsenting human, and dead set against serious ones. Babies and those who aren't able to make choices themselves I can understand but you don't go and do something so serious as body modification on them unless you've a damned good reason.
You wouldn't get a baby a tattoo would you? Then why would you cut a baby. I'm also against procedures done on intersex babies to try and force them into one or another - unless medically NEEDED. And the idea that some people are so okay with it all is just frightening to me.
And oh god, the 'ewww' thing or the 'look like his father' thing are about the worst excuses ever. As I said some place in the thread, I think cut and uncut penises look as funny as each other lol. Don't know how you'd was one or handle one, really, and I've heard the pleasure thing increases but also wouldn't know. But doesnt seem like something you'd want to take away.
Sounds like you're raising him well though *g* I don't even remember if I got it or if I picked it up over time or.... something. I imagine it's less traumatising than having parents sit you down one day and tell you.