[ SECRET POST #1126 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1126 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 078 secrets from Secret Submission Post #161.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

randomly popping back in here.

[adraekh.livejournal.com]

One of the points that I continually encounter when people start talking about the manga and the characterization in the manga is that Arakawa is writing a plot-driven story, and thus, it is only natural that her characterization suffers.

First of all, that is such a wrong assumption that I don't quite know how to answer it. (And I mean this in the nicest way possible. Really! No offense meant, herongale.) But characterization and plot are not inversely related. You can have a very epic plot (action, adventure, Byzantine politics, all that jazz) that is nonetheless very character-driven. I brought up this example way down in the thread: George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series. It is arguably more epic than the FMA manga, more complex, more everything - but at the same time, it is also very character-driven, about as character-driven as the first FMA anime, actually, if not more so.

It is difficult, yes, to combine characterization and plot effectively, but the payoff is worth it in the end, if the writer/author/artist can pull it off. Arakawa's shoddy characterization isn't a side-effect of having an epic plot. It's a failure on her part as an author at effective characterization, because a good author is able to pull all these threads together to make one coherent whole.

Re: randomly popping back in here.

[herongale]

Oh, no, I agree. But the truth is that most writers go either one way or another. It is not common for a writer to be able to pull off both with equal effectiveness, and to do it in such a way that is complex, engaging, lengthy, and complete.

It's interesting that you bring up GRRM, since although it is true that he is capable of creating a complex plot with a series of complex characters, I find A Song of Ice and Fire to be tedious, grim, and I suspect, going nowhere, since I personally doubt he will ever finish it. Although the first two observations are merely personal preference, the last point is the salient one. Because if he can't finish the story, then his ability to bring it all together is ultimately meaningless, because that would suggest he has allowed his ambitions to outstrip his abilities. It may not be possible for him to sustain that level of writing all the way to the finish line.

If he DOES finish it, then it would be worthwhile to say that he can pull it off, but he hasn't yet. He's not even close.

And that brings me back to Arakawa. I believe that she is NOT overreaching, and that she will finish her story. It will not be perfect, but it's the story she's able to write, and although it is theoretically possible that she could do more with her characterization, I doubt that she could on a practical level. She is like a lot of writers: she is not perfect, she has her flaws as well as her strengths. And although I could wish that she were better at characterizations, I appreciate that she is telling us the story in a way that means she is likely to finish it. Arakawa is not a bad writer because she sacrifices characterization for plot... she's just not the best kind of writer.

The number of writers who are good enough to balance characterization and plot, to do it in a complex manner, and who can finish? Few. Few indeed.

Re: randomly popping back in here.

[adraekh.livejournal.com]

Fair point! We shall have to wait and see where GRRM goes with his series. I dearly hope he doesn't die before finishing it, as that would be a shame. I myself have faith that he will finish the story, or, at least, that he knows where he is going with it.

Of course, this is assuming that Arakawa's ending will not make us want to bash our heads into the wall. I'm seeing a very quick downhill slide into Harry Potter-esque epilogue, but that may just be me being horribly cynical. If the ending is that bad, however, I think I would prefer her not to finish it at all, and it would also be an indication that her plot has run away from her, in that she set herself up for a grand ending but couldn't quite make it. In any case, here's to hoping the ending will be good, though I honestly cannot imagine her ending the story in any way that will be . . . decent. Not even good, but just plain decent. Again, cynicism.

Clearly, she just needs to have Cthulu come out of the ground and eat everyone. I think that would be grand. *g*

Re: randomly popping back in here.

[herongale]

I should confess here that Arakawa's uneven writing skills are a part of the reason why I became such a big fan of FMA to begin with.

The things that I love which I consider perfect are also things that I am content to love for what they are, and I don't end up seeking out the fandom, or coming up with my own alternate story ideas, or even getting really deep into shipping... a good story simply satisfies me, and although I will read truly good stories over and over again and consider myself a fan, I don't need anything more than that to make me happy.

FMA... is good enough to have captured my interest. It is not good enough to satisfy me, to truly satisfy me. If the ending is a train wreck, that might end up just making me be an even bigger fan, because it could easily inspire me to write even more fanfiction for the series than I have already. :) That said, I am not so selfish to actually hope for a train wreck ending, nor am I that foolish. It would be great if she can finish it well, or at least decently. We'll see!

I disagree with you about preferring her not to finish at all. As my friend anax says, the worst story ever told is still better than the best story never told. I'm glad that FMA exists. Just as I'm glad that Harry Potter exists, and that Digimon exists, and that the Transformers exist... basically, all of the things that I love which are flawed and which frustrate me on a regular basis.

I should point out that this discussion has been a lot of fun. You're smart and articulate and what you say is interesting, regardless of whether I agree or not. Thanks! (I'm going to bed soon, so I might not reply any more this evening)

Re: randomly popping back in here.

[adraekh.livejournal.com]

You're right, of course! I find that the flaws of the FMA manga and anime make great fodder for stories. It's excellent sometimes, a little unrefined other times, but that gives us a firm foundation and some nice raw potential to work with. I love it! (And Arakawa has certainly created some pretty damn nice groundwork, which is more than what I can say for my other main fandom, which is just a whole lot of potential but very little substance. All smoke and mirrors, I say.) Typically, the harsher and more detailed my criticism, the more I like what I'm talking about; I wouldn't spend so much time thinking about it otherwise.

The things that I love which I consider perfect are also things that I am content to love for what they are, and I don't end up seeking out the fandom, or coming up with my own alternate story ideas, or even getting really deep into shipping... a good story simply satisfies me, and although I will read truly good stories over and over again and consider myself a fan, I don't need anything more than that to make me happy.

I'm mostly the same way with the things I truly like. I try not to mess with the things I love, but for a bit of a different reason - not necessarily because the canon satisfies me, but because I'm afraid to taint it with my touch. Dumb way of thinking, right? (People say to write what you love and all that good stuff . . .) It's why I don't actually write about the characters/pairings I like all that often. I'm just afraid of messing them up and having people draw the "wrong" conclusions about that character/pairing from the portrayal in a story, and then I'd feel absolutely horrible. Ideal world in my head, but once it gets down on paper, it's absolute dreck, and people will think what they will. So the only thing I can do to keep people from making these "wrong" assumptions is to . . . not write the story! Hah. My logic fails me even now, sometimes.

We'll have to disagree on the "no ending" side, but I'm showing my bias. Open endings fascinate me. Also, I'm actually not overly concerned with what happens in the canon after the initial set-up. I'll bitch about it or praise it sometimes, but - you know, it's fandom and there will always be stories. I think the best phrase I can use to describe it is "time out of mind", if that makes sense. It's there, and I'm glad it exists, but I don't care for it beyond a certain point in its existence. This would explain why the ending of Shamballa doesn't piss me off as much as it should. Open-ended and I don't particularly care! Hurrah, it's a win-win situation for me.

And yes, this has been an interesting discussion! I normally don't come out of my shell because I'm afraid of wank (and this secret inspires all sorts of wank), but I'm glad I decided to chime in, because you've raised some interesting points. Your initial comment about people often mistaking a badass character for a well-written character is a good one, and it's one of the things that I've been trying to articulate for a while but just haven't been able to. (I might also go so far as to say people do mistake badassery for strength, in the complete sense of the word. A badass character isn't even necessarily strong as a person or well-written as a character.) In any case, I feel that much of what's going on with Riza is that Arakawa isn't entirely sure whether she wants to make Riza a character or a plot device, so she's stuck her in some horrible limbo between the two extremes, and it rubs some people the wrong way.