[ SECRET POST #1174 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1174 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

April 1st Submissions Post is open!

Secrets Left to Post: 08 pages, 185 secrets from Secret Submission Post #168.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: 135

[immortal-jedi.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on the fact that John had major issues as a Father, but (playing the devil's advocate here a bit) Sam thought John had disowned him. Sam thought that John care about him anymore. He even outright said that he didn't think John would want to see him again.

Re: 135

[ginzai.livejournal.com]

I do put more blame with John than with Sam here. Sam is the one who was much more insecure about the situation and John was the adult. But that said, Sam was at least 18; he wasn't a child. John should have handled things better and I imagine the way Sam left was one of the biggest regrets of his life, but Sam wasn't fully innocent in it either.

I think part of this might be a difference in defining the word "disowned". To me, that implies something much more significant than what happened. Sam and John had a massive, blow out fight and it ended with Sam willingly leaving and John telling him not to come back. Plus the tone of the secret felt incredibly one sided, like John had tossed Sam out on the street against Sam's will. That it was mutual and Sam was content to leave things as they stood until Jessica died make all the difference to me.

Re: 135

[immortal-jedi.livejournal.com]

Well, from what I saw in the show, Sam wanted to go to college, that's it. Nothing about leaving the family, nothing about not talking to them.

Sam: I was just going to college. It was Dad who said if I was gonna go, I should stay gone. And that’s what I’m doing.

That's from the Pilot episode.

Sam flat out says that he just wanted to go to college. I highly doubt that Sam wanted to leave his family like that. Later on, he's shocked that John cared about him to check up on him at Stanford. To me, that implies that Sam thought his father had disowned him. He also says that he doesn't think John would ever want to see him again.

If Jess hadn't died, would Sam have ever found out that his father still loved him?

*sigh* The fact is, we have no idea what that fight was like. It could have been like this

Sam: I'm going to college and your not going to stop me.
John: If you go, never come back.

or it could have been

Sam: I got a full ride to Stanford and I want to go. Can you...
John: You're not going! And if you do, never come back

Something about the whole thing makes me thing that it was a lot closer to the second then the first. Just, from the way things are presented to us in the show.

I still say that eighteen is not exactly the best age to make rational decisions, and John shouldn't have thrown his son out. Because that's basically what he did, cut Sam off. Sam didn't think he could call his family when he was at Stanford, you notice.

Re: 135

[ginzai.livejournal.com]

Right, that line is from the pilot but it always felt to me like Sam didn't want to call them, not that he didn't think he could. His reaction when Dean showed up in the pilot and how he couldn't seem to wait to show Dean the door at first made me think as much, especially when combined with the line of Dean's about how he hadn't asked for anything in two years. It sounded like a mutual sort of thing to me between Sam and John and I find it telling that while John checked up on Sam, we've had no indication of Sam checking up on them, not even via Bobby or Pastor Jim.

John had many, many issues as a father and I'd never claim otherwise. Plus I do consider him to be more at fault for the situation than Sam. I just don't think the Stanford argument was as entirely onesided as this secret implies.

Re: 135

[immortal-jedi.livejournal.com]

I always read that line, along with all the other times Sam mentioned the fight in S1 as Sam thinking he couldn't.

Well, Dean had said that he hadn't contacted Sam in two years (and I hate that little plot problem there, btw). Would you want to see your estranged brother if he broke into your house after two years of no contact, asking you to help find your missing father, who you thought hated you?

I think that Sam thought his family had given up on him, why should he try to find out about them?

Now, I think we're just arguing in circles here. Clearly, I feel one way about the text, you feel another way. And, really, I'm enjoying the argument, but we're not going to resolve anything. And that's fine. It's fun, though.

Re: 135

[ginzai.livejournal.com]

It looks like we're interpreting the text differently, that's for sure. But you're right; it's a fun conversation, even if we won't convince each other of our respective POVs! :)

In Dean's case, it depends. I never got the impression that Sam blamed Dean for the fight or that Dean had been much more than a bystander during it. I'm guessing there were several incidents like in Dead Man's Blood where Sam and John were at each other's throats and Dean did what he could to keep the peace, at least until that final argument where Sam finally left. So if my interpretation is correct, then I would want to see my estranged brother because I wouldn't associate him with the negativity that happened with my dad, especially because this is almost years after the fact and the wounds have had a chance to heal.

The two/four year thing drives me batty too! The best way I can explain it is that the writers screwed the pooch Sam was gone for almost four years (he hadn't graduated yet but seemed to be in his senior year, so more than three years) and that he and Dean had last had contact two years prior to the pilot. I'm guessing something happened then that turned the feud somewhat more personal between them, but of course, there's no canon confirmation of any of that.