[ SECRET POST #1271 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1271 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

No mudkips, don't worry.

Secrets Left to Post: 25 pages, 608 secrets from Secret Submission Post #182.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[thene]

As a result, they tend toward slightly different experiences, and these experiences colour their outlooks on life, and consequently the way they think.

[citation needed]

Srsly; the differences among men and women are far greater than the differences between men and women. There is such huge variety of experience, and outlook, and thoughts, in the human race that claiming that men and women are 'different' is totally obscuring the forest for the trees. Women have vastly differing public lives and vastly differing inner lives so saying that there's some sense in which men are just 'different' from women and therefore it's okay to only write male protagonists is reductionist in the extreme.

I also want to know what you mean by 'our' culture. Again, you are assuming way less variety than there really is in terms of gender roles and gender socialisation. I am an immigrant and the place I live in currently is far more stringent about gender than the place where I last lived.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

Okay, okay, I was in the midst of editing my comment for clarity, but you responded first. Everything you're telling me here is something I already know, and your condescending tone is very irritating. Pretending that I am unaware of the fact that gender roles are different in different societies and that the differences between men and women are less than those between men and men and women and women is simply being obtuse.

so saying that there's some sense in which men are just 'different' from women and therefore it's okay to only write male protagonists is reductionist in the extreme

It is a good thing I said absolutely nothing remotely like that!

Anyway, here you go:

EDIT to add that, like the woman in your quote, I am consistently praised by my male readership by how realistically I portray their gender. Obviously, this is accomplished by thinking of them as humans first, with the same needs and desires as any other human, but also the different expectations our culture has of them and how this affects their development, whether they choose to accept cultural norms or reject them outright.

You might be barking up the wrong tree here - you're talking to a feminist who believes the natural differences between men and women are so minimal as to be negligible, or broad useless stereotypes (I'm better at maths and sciences than the arts, I'm excellent at discerning visual/spatial relationships, I prefer action to romance, I like FPSs more than RPGs, football more than figure skating, cars more than clothes - and I believe this makes me a perfectly normal woman) but there is absolutely no question that our culture discriminates, and this leads men and women to have different experiences.

For example: my brother and I both bought Half-life 2 when it first came out. We both love the game - here is an example of a man and woman being, at their core, exactly the same. But when I walked into the EB to buy it, the man behind the counter asked me condescendingly if I was sure that what I wanted it and when I said yes, told me that my "boyfriend" would love it. When my brother bought it, he said only "really great game, huh?".

Different experiences. They colour our outlooks. This is important to bear in mind as a writer.

[thene]

So basically what you're saying is that female characters are so different from male characters that you find it 'easier' to write about men because you feel they're more 'familiar' to you, but all the differences between men and women are caused by women's experiences of patriarchy? That makes no sense in the context of speculative fiction, because many of our canons are about cultures that have less sexism or supposedly no sexism, or just different sexism to the cultures of the real world. In OF, you don't have to write about patriarchy if you don't want to. So how does it make sense to define 'familiarity' with a protagonist's gender solely on the experiences you're assuming women have under IRL patriarchy?

And yeah, I get ticked off when I see someone use the phrase 'our culture', singular, because it's a huge assumption and often not a valid one.

[demiincarnate.livejournal.com]

Fun fact: SOME PEOPLE DON'T WRITE SPECULATIVE FICTION
And it's not just patriarchy. Women and men have different roles in every society. This is because women get pregnant and make babies. Among other things.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

I do write some speculative fiction - one of my worlds is a matriarchy, in fact. The roles of men and women are very different to say the least. They'd be unrecognizable, to us. My protagonist is a woman, and her experiences are unlike those any woman would experience in real life. It's what makes speculative fiction fun!

I suppose you could write speculative fiction in a world in which all children are grown in vats and raised by the government. That would obviate the difference in biology, and issues such as abortion, reproductive and parental rights, etc.

But since this was very obviously not what anyone was talking about, it's rather beside the point, isn't it.

[demiincarnate.livejournal.com]

Oh! I did write a story like that once, with the vats and the government. There were no gender issues in that society. But then they met some ordinary humans and had gender issues. But yeah, totally beside the point.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

So basically what you're saying is that female characters are so different from male characters that you find it 'easier' to write about men because you feel they're more 'familiar' to you

No, this isn't what I said either. Deliberately misreading statements to use them in your own argument isn't a particularly classy debate tactic; I don't recommend it, in future.

So, essentially, you're up in arms because we're talking about realistic, rather than speculative fiction. In particular speculative fiction in which there are no culturally perceived differences between males and females. That's a shame, I suppose.

You have a nice day, then.

[thene]

"and I write mostly male protagonists because it's easier for me. I'm more familiar with their thoughts and experiences"

Uh, that is what you said. It's easier for you to write male protagonists because they're more familiar to you.

And no, it is quite possible to write fiction set in the really real world that doesn't focus on gender roles or patriarchy to any significant extent. The character in your icon is proof of that. There are many completely factually-based stories in which women are not defined by patriarchy.

I often have problems writing about women in fandom, and I do write markedly more fic about men than fic about women, and this is because popular media franchises often use women poorly. I feel that this restriction collapses when one gets into OF, speculative or otherwise. (See demiincarnate denying the existence of female politicians).

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

That would indeed be what I said if you didn't read any of the rest of what I said; quote-mining isn't a terribly classy tactic, either.

Actually, The Boss is a brilliant example of my point, which you continue you miss, deliberately or otherwise. She gave birth on the battlefield and was profoundly affected by it. This was an experience for her as a woman what she would not have had were she a man. Indeed, the whole "this is proof that I was a mother" is one of the defining moments of her characterization as a distinctly female soldier. And you're being deliberately obtuse again, the influence of the patriarchy is rampant in the MGS series - just look at Meryl. Her character is defined by her struggle against the male-dominated social mores of the military. A male Meryl would not have dealt with this. Among countless other examples.

Well, thanks for handing me that one, anyway.

You cite demiincarnate's poorly phrased example as evidence of this collapse, yet you refuse to challenge mine - that of the present day US Army Rangers. This leads me to believe you don't really have a point, to be frank, and are nit-picking, as well as throwing around spurious accusations of sexism with no evidence.

As a result, I'm beginning to get the impression this has either become a vanity argument for you, or you're trolling.

EDIT: It also sort of breaks my heart that you're disenfranchising The Boss of her womanhood. She is one of my favourite characters of all time, and one of the greatest heroes ever written, male or female. But women as heroic soldiers are written far less often than men. Especially women who are so definitely steeped in female experiences like birth and motherhood. To rob her of his, to say that her gender plays no part and a man who was The Boss would be identical is to destroy everything Kojima did so brilliantly with her character.

(Let's try that again with grammar this time >_>)

[thene]

Uh, the Boss was affected by giving birth but she was also affected by going to space, by fighting in WW2 and by killing someone she loved. Her philosophy, which is the part of her that had the largest effect on the plot, had nothing the hell to do with gender. One gendered experience does not an entire character make. I'd be interested to know whether that one experience makes you see her as 'unfamiliar', though. (I don't relate to Meryl's experience as being gendered much at all - the only gender thing I can think of related to Meryl is the whole bride thing, which isn't mentioned until the end of MGS4, so I find it hard to see it as a vital part of her personality. She's really concerned about not being a rookie and about living up to Roy and Matt's legacies but that is not to do with her femaleness.)

Reminding you of the first thing you said, the thing that prompted me to respond to you in the first place, is not quote-mining. If you don't prefer to write men because it's easier because women are unfamiliar to you, then I am genuinely confused as to why you wrote that comment.

Your comment about the US Army Rangers wasn't a response to one of mine so I didn't read it until just now. I see your point, but I fail to understand why anyone would a) want to write only about the US Army Rangers and nothing else, or b) if they did claim to only want to write about all-male groups, not see that claiming interest only in all-male groups is a strong sign of their own underlying sexism.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

Of course it doesn't make her entire character. I never said that. It is, however, and undeniable part of her character. Robbing The Boss of her female experiences would be like robbing The Boss of her experiences as a soldier. Without them, it's not really The Boss anymore.

With respect to Meryl, have you not played MGS1? Because her driving conflict is reconciling her dislike of traditional femininity with social expectation of her, particularly military social expectations. She resolves many of these conflicts by MGS4, yes. Character development, and all that.

That said, I've had the same thoughts as you, and lately I'm trying to write with more and more female characters, especially protagonists. It's actually extremely rewarding, and has improved my writing by leaps and bounds.

Well, there, I'll remind you of the last thing I said. I don't prefer to write men at all. My protagonists are roughly in equal numbers, these days. If you read to the end, that's relatively clear. Hence, quote-mining.

I write about the Army Rangers because my fandom is about the Army Rangers. (And the frontline SAS, by the by, which is also an all-male regiment.) If one wants to write about the Army Rangers in a non-fandom related way, one might be interested in Operation Gothic Serpent, or one of their many engagements throughout history. That you "fail to understand" why is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. That's on you. I think Battle of Mogadishu was fascinating, and I really enjoy the Call of Duty series - that's why. Insinuating that's sexist is laughable at best - I also write about the female elite operators in Rainbow Six and F.E.A.R..

[(Anonymous)]

Wow, this entire thread is the violent collision of two different schools of feminism: idealism (we're all the same deep down and our experiences are human experiences) versus realism (regardless of our shared human experiences our societies treat us differently and this has a profound effect on our lives).

Huh. Neat. I'd never really thought about it before. Most Internet Arguments are silly, but this one educated this particular anon. I think you both have a point. Carry on!

[(Anonymous)]

not see that claiming interest only in all-male groups is a strong sign of their own underlying sexism.

So wanting to write one story about the US Army Rangers makes one sexist? I'm not going to turn into Tim O'Brien just because I'm in the mood to write a certain thing. Actually, Tim O'Brien is a good example of why someone would want to write only about the US Army Rangers without necessarily being sexist. You are generalizing far too much here.

[thene]

Just saw your edit. I love the Boss partly because she's a woman whose gender is not written as her sole defining characteristic, kthnxgnight. Men written without gender as their sole defining characteristic are commonplace; are they disenfranchised of maleness because no one goes on about what manly mcmen they are?

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

Of course it's not her sole defining characteristic. But it's a very important one. I'd put it right after her being a patriot and a soldier.

are they disenfranchised of maleness because no one goes on about what manly mcmen they are?

I have no idea, because I play shooters, and virtually every male character is so utterly steeped in maleness, male experiences, and male social expectations that it is impossible to imagine a game not respecting their male identities. (Though on that topic, Kojima comes pretty close with Raiden.)

[(Anonymous)]

Men written without gender as their sole defining characteristic are commonplace; are they disenfranchised of maleness because no one goes on about what manly mcmen they are?

Oh wow. You seriously don't think the vast majority of fiction in the civilized world with a male protagonist doesn't go on and on about what a manly mcman he is? Just because the author doesn't spell it out for you? What I'd give for your blinders. Above!anon called you idealistic, but this is straight up delusional.

The male protagonists of most series might as well bottle testosterone for profit and slap their enemies with their dicks, they're so gender-defined. While they rescue their wives/girlfriends/daughters from whatever foreign power we're afraid of having sex with our womenfolk these days. You swallowed the whole male = default crap so much you don't even see it? Wow. Most stories about men are all about their experiences as men. That's some powerful denial you've got going on. You should bottle that and sell it to the Libertarians.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

I don't think she's unaware of the fact that men are just as gendered as women are in fiction, anon. I think she's saying that this is not as often their sole defining feature, as it is so often for female characters.

I don't think anybody would deny that many a male protagonist has I AM A MANLY MCMAN written on his forehead ;p