Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2011-01-05 04:09 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2011-01-05 04:09 pm
[ SECRET POST #1464 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1464 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 108 secrets from Secret Submission Post #209.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-01-06 09:25 am (UTC)(link)You don't think men have any culpability in these cases? Why does he get a pass and not her? There's birth control for men as well as women, so you can't say "well, she should have used protection and since she didn't it's all on her" because he should have used it, too. And that's not even taking into account that birth control fails sometimes. Also? It doesn't matter if he welcomes it or not. If they have consensual, unprotected sex, they BOTH have to deal with the possible consequences.
I'm not sure why you keep bringing up women working part-time. Someone has to watch the kids, and not everyone can afford child-care or a baby-sitter for more than a few hours. Sometimes it's not possible to find full-time work. If a man has nothing to do with his children, then most of the child-care rests with the woman, which leaves less time for work, especially if she's on her own with no support system.
If pregnancy results from rape, then clearly the man should be punished...but do you truly wish to be dependent of alimony from your rapist? Having to - even in minimal form- deal with him every month?
If that child-support (alimony is something else) helped keep my kid from going cold and hungry? Absolutely.
Lack of sex education is a problem, but not just for girls, but also for boys. It's an issue that should be tackled at school, before pregnancy, and not patched-up after sex education has failed by punishing either of the potential parents financially.
But you implied before that the man should have no responsibilities in "accidental" pregnancies (which these would be, if both parties are ignorant of sex ed) which would definitely punish the woman financially. So, again, why is it okay to punish her and not him?
As for men being jerks - yes that happens, but how exactly should one work anti-jerk sentiments into laws? And how do you distinguish fromthose who were very clear about their wishes?
I... are you honestly suggesting that a woman should be punished because a man's a jerk? If a man lies/tricks/forces/coerces/etc her into having kids, or just into having unprotected sex that results in kids, then yes, he has a responsibility for those kids whether he recognizes them as his or not. Denying the kid is his does not give him a free pass.
no subject
It's taking distance from the role of parenthood, despite itbeing a biological offspring.
Which a woman can do through adoption of abortion at any time, without consent of the man. Not all children are raised by those biologically related to them.
Which means the woman has more power to force a man into parenthood, than vice versa, by sheer power of biology and law.
Do you honestly think a man should be punished financially, even if a woman deliberately "oopsed" him into parenthood? Because those cases happen, too? And more frequently than you think.It does work both ways.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-01-06 08:52 pm (UTC)(link)As far as adoption or abortion goes, considering the horror stories you hear about the adoption system in the US (which is where I'm from, it may be different in other countries) I don't blame anyone for not wanting to go that route (and often you need both parents' consent to put a child up for adoption, so if he wants the child and she doesn't that's another choice taken away from her), and abortion isn't an option for all women, for a variety of reasons - sometimes it's not available; sometimes it's against their morals and/or religion; sometimes they're just too scared; sometimes the stigma against it is too much for them to consider it; sometimes their families won't let them; and I'm sure there's more. I don't think a woman should be punished, even financially, for keeping her child any more than I think she should be punished for giving it up or having an abortion. Honestly, if there's consensual, unprotected sex, or birth control fails, and they both have been educated about how children are conceived, the woman should not have to suffer for not giving up her child just because the man doesn't want any responsibility, since he knew full well that was a possibility.
And, no, I'm sorry. I don't think women have that much more power to force a man into parenthood. Yes, they conceive, carry, and have the child, but this isn't always their choice, and I think more of them are forced into it than you realize. There's more to it than just the physical act. Men still have mental and emotional power over a lot of women; some are still raised being taught that having children is their duty; some will be ostracized by not "acting the way a woman should"; etc. The only way it will be as cut and dry as you make it is if outside influences like these are removed and that's not going to happen for a long time, if ever.
Let me toss a scenario out for you. Say a woman gets pregnant and the father wants the child but the mother doesn't. She's okay with carrying and giving birth* and agrees to give him custody afterward. Do you think she should be, in any way, responsible for the kid after it's born and given over? If your answer is "yes" you need to seriously sit back and think about what you've been saying.
*Because, believe it or not, not all women are okay with it. Getting pregnant is huge phobia for me, I have nightmares about it, and I can't imagine carrying a child full term, let alone giving birth to one.
But I'm done, because you can't seem to look past your 'those poor men!' way of thinking and we're never going to see eye-to-eye here.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-01-13 01:21 pm (UTC)(link)What you don't seem to understand is that parents paying child support is not about punishing them. It's about supporting the child. No, it's not nice for a man to have to pay child support if he never wanted a kid and was lied to about contraception - but it's not about him. It's about the child. If he wasn't prepared to risk paying child support, he should never have been having sex in the first place. Contraception can fail, deliberately or not, and once a child is born, that child needs support.
no subject
Fortunately, I have that option.
If I were a man, unfortunately, I would not have that option. This is why I strongly believe in what is the notion of "financial abortion".
So if a woman deliberately tells a man she's using contraction, and she isn't, then YES, I think the responsibility should be on her, not him. And if she can't support the kid - well, than she made a very big mistake, didn't she?
You are also willfully ignoring the fact, that even if contraception fails, a woman is NOT forced to have a child. She can always choose a variety of options to get rid of the fetus before it is born, or choose to give it to adoptive parents, if that is more in accordance with her morals.
Of course contraception can fail, but in a sane relationship, you would pretty much discuss what you would do if that were to happen.
And get out if your partner is a bit nuts...
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-01-13 11:53 pm (UTC)(link)That is all completely irrelevant, because when a child is born, it needs support. The people who must support it, if the child is not handed over for adoption or some such, are its parents.
That's why your idea of all the responsibility falling on one of the parents doesn't work. The reason is because having only one parent financially responsible for it will harm the child. Because child support is about what's best for the child, not about what's fair to the parents.
no subject
The point is, SHE chose to have the responsibility, HE didn't.
She can choose to give it up, he can't.
And that's an inherently unjust situation.
The parent who does not want the child, should not be forced to pay for it, just because the other one went against their wishes and had it anyway.
If you do not abort, or give out to adoption, that means you CHOOSE to have the kid
You choose to have a kid? = you pay for it
your choice = your responsibility
Can't? Tough luck. Then it should be taken away from you and given to a family who can, or become a warden of the state.