fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1509 ]

[ SECRET POST #1509 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1509 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 16 pages, 376 secrets from Secret Submission Post #216.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Petunia deliberately abused Harry and would have cheerfully fed him to Voldemort if Dumbledore hadn't scared her into not doing so. Snape was deliberately cruel to Harry and tried to make him miserable, but also tried to save his life when he was endangered and to keep him out of trouble where possible without prompting or coercing.

They're both bad people, but Petunia really is worse.

But it's pretty safe to say Snape would've fed Harry to Voldemort if it wasn't for Dumbledore as well. Snape was fine with Voldemort killing James and Harry as long as Lily lived. Then he started working with Dumbledore, who made him protect Harry.

I never got that from the books. He saved Harry (after Lily's death, anyway) because Harry was all that was left of Lily. Not because he cared about him, but because he didn't want Lily's only child to die. ...And he hated himself for it because he didn't like Harry, and hated Harry for looking so much like James, and a zillion other self-destructive and selfish things, but the essential motivation to keep Harry alive was there without Dumbledore's prompting--after Lily's death. It even persisted after Dumbledore's death. In book seven, everything Snape did, he did to keep Harry alive long enough to give him a chance to kill Voldemort.

So...yeah, I'm gonna stick to my guns. Snape wasn't protecting Harry just for Dumbledore. He never did so because it was the right thing, but he wasn't doing it because he was afraid of Dumbledore. The only reason Petunia didn't throw Harry out of the house, knowing he would die if she did, was because she thought Dumbledore would hurt her for it.

If I remember correctly, Snape went to Dumbledore asking him to protect Lily, and Dumbledore had him promise to do whatever he wanted in return. When Lily died, Dumbledore encouraged him to protect Harry and make sure she didn't die in vain. Yes, he continued to do this after Dumbledore's death, but so did Lily (until Harry left the house by his own choice anyway). They both protected him because of Dumbledore and because of Lily.

He would have let Harry and James both fry as long as Lily survived. He said as much to Dumbledore (he told Voldemort to spare Lily - kill the other two, but spare her) - Dumbledore pretty much manipulates him into defending Harry by guilting him about Lily. And let's face it, Snape was a prick to Harry and certainly wasn't defending him out of kindness to Harry himself - it was essentially, 'this is my apology to your mother'.

This.

I don't disagree that Petunia is a horrible human being but I don't think she would have handed Harry to Voldemort. She must have taken him in willingly on a base level for the blood magic of Lily's sacrifice to continue protecting Harry. Dumbledore explained this and what would happen if the protection was broken in the letter and she believed him and did as she was told, as abominable as the way she went about doing that was.

I agree. She was disgustingly horrible to Harry but I don't believe she was keeping him in her home only out of fear of Dumbledore. I think she didn't want him to die.

Snape abused hundreds of students over the years, though. I think they're equally bad.

That's another angle. We didn't have a look at what Snape would be like if he had a kid he hated around full time in his home, rather than a few times a week.

Yup. Honestly, he's just so awful when he's interacting with students (like when Hermione got that curse that made her front teeth grow and he said he didn't see any difference? WTF, man?) that I can't imagine he'd be any less horrible than Petunia and Vernon were, if he had to take a kid in like they did.

Neville's the one I can never get over. He knows that part of why Neville is insecure is because the people with whom Snape sided tortured the Longbottoms to insanity. If he feels any remorse at all for being allied with them (which, if he does, is something we're never shown) he doesn't translate it into empathy for their son. Nope. Instead he threatens to murder Neville's pet. FFS.

I often wondered if Snape was blaming Neville for not being the chosen child instead of Harry. Then Neville would be the tragic kid with the dead parents and Lily would still be alive... assuming the Death Eaters didn't decide to go kill her just for being a muggle born.

Dude...I never ever thought of that.

I am one-hundred percent certain that Snape would have continued the cycle of abuse, as he, himself, had a terrible, abusive childhood.

Petunia, however, appears to have come from a well-adjusted, loving home. Snape learned to be vile from an early age. Petunia's character flaws are all her own.

But Snape didn't have to continue the cycle of abuse. I mean, Harry also had a horrible childhood, but didn't become an abusive jerk. It was Snape's choices that made him awful, not his childhood.

No, Snape did not have to continue the cycle of abuse. However, I am saying that -because- Snape did have these painful childhood experiences, it makes him a more sympathetic character. It is very difficult to grow up into a non-abusive adult when the seed of abuse is planted into you at an early age. If all you knew as a child was violence, you have a much harder time reacting differently as an adult. But that is what being an adult is all about: taking responsibility for your actions. Not being able to heal and grow from his childhood abuse was Snape's weakness.
Harry was obviously stronger. We saw at various times that he -could- have become someone like Snape or Voldemort, but he made a conscious effort to be better.

The problem with Petunia is that she has no such excuse. When we meet her, she is not dirty and unkempt as Snape is. She obviously has a stable home life. Yes, she suffered a major disappointment as a child, but that happens to everyone. I wanted nothing more than to grow up to be a singer when I was younger, but I didn't have any musical talent. It broke my heart, but I moved on and found other talents. That's life.
I am more willing to forgive Snape for not being strong enough to overcome his abuse than I am Petunia's petty jealousy. Petunia had a good family and a sister who loved her, but she chose to let her envy poison that relationship instead of focusing her energy elsewhere.

tl;dr: It takes more strength to overcome childhood abuse than a childhood disappointment. Everyone experiences disappointment in their life. That Petunia couldn't get over hers (and used it as a reason to abuse an innocent child who was entirely dependent on her) makes her an exceptionally weak character.

Why couldn't I just say this?! My God, I failed so hard trying to explain myself.

To be honest, I think the problem lies in the people you were trying to convince. They're reacting a little personally to any imagined Petunia-snark.

I honestly don't feel very strongly for either character but I feel that we know more about Snape than we do about Petunia and that what we know makes him a more sympathetic. I don't consider the hypothetical because it's not in the text. If it's not in the text (or implied in the text), then I don't see the point of arguing over it. So when people say "we don't know Petunia's background. She could have been abused as a child," I don't put much weight behind that because I honestly think that if JK felt it were truly important, she would have put it in the books.

I don't consider the hypothetical because it's not in the text. If it's not in the text (or implied in the text), then I don't see the point of arguing over it. So when people say "we don't know Petunia's background. She could have been abused as a child," I don't put much weight behind that because I honestly think that if JK felt it were truly important, she would have put it in the books.

Yes, thank you. But I think we can easily infer that Petunia was not abused because (1) the way she is described versus the way other (clearly abused) children are described and (2) child-abuse is a big theme in Rowling's series. She would not hesitate to include this detail if that was the case.

Another major theme in Rowling's book is that we choose to become the people we are. Whether we are given a bad lot in life and become bad (Voldemort), we are given a bad lot in life and become good (Harry), we are given a good lot in life and become bad (Petunia), or we are given a good lot in life can become good (Lily). I mean, I absolutely oversimplified it, but I think that is the bare-bones of this theme. I have a suspicion that the reason Rowling only showed Petunia's motive in being terrible is to illustrate this point. Whereas, with Snape, she took a little more care in telling us about his tragic childhood and his conflicting emotions. Snape was set up to be an antihero, whereas while we did feel sorry for Petunia, the impression we are ultimately left with is that she could not overcome her jealousy and therefore became a bad person.

But...I'm just preaching to the choir.

(no subject)

wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com - 2011-02-20 02:48 (UTC) - Expand

Actually, I think most of them are reacting to the way Snape's poor behavior is just glossed over in an effort to say Petunia is the worst of the two. Especially in HP fandom where we have the Snapewives and a huge sector that loves to romanticize what is essentially a dysfunctional, abusive, unkind character because he's portrayed by Alan Rickman and/or because he was manipulated into doing the "right" thing in the end.

But yeah, okay, it's all because Petunia actually has this huge secret fanbase.

(no subject)

criedtherabbit.livejournal.com - 2011-02-20 03:03 (UTC) - Expand

I always kind of thought that a lot of Petunia's behavior came from jealousy at Lily's being a witch and her not being, because I kind of got the impression that Lily was treated as more special by their parents for it and Petunia was mad. Not that it excuses her being mean to Harry, but I think she probably always had that feeling of being left out and nonspecial, which was why she tried to be all super normal: it was her way of overcompensating for not being special. You know, I think I am going to go write a fic about that now =D

because I kind of got the impression that Lily was treated as more special by their parents for it and Petunia was mad

But that is simple sibling rivalry and is experienced by most siblings, magical and non-magical. Petunia was not neglected by her parents. She is never described as unkempt or thin, as Snape is. Clearly, Snape was neglected and abused. On the other hand, Petunia's parents -may- have paid Lily more attention. Who knows? Petunia is not the most reliable source, to be honest. We can see that from the way she describes Lily and James. Petunia is prone to hyperbole.
Yes, it's sad if her parents did show a little more preference for Lily. But I have a feeling that she still had a stable and loving home growing up. Besides, Lily was away at Hogwarts for most of the year, which means that Petunia got her parents attention 90% of the time. So even if they did shower their other daughter with a little more attention when she was at home, that was understandable.

Not that it excuses her being mean to Harry, but I think she probably always had that feeling of being left out and nonspecial, which was why she tried to be all super normal: it was her way of overcompensating for not being special.
Yes, I think you're right on the money there. But the difference between Snape and Petunia is that Snape has legitimate grievances with his caretaker. Petunia suffers from what most of us do: we can all think to a time when our parents should have acted differently/better in some situation. Most of us do not use these grudges as an excuse to abuse our wards.

You know, I think I am going to go write a fic about that now
You should. Good luck. :)

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