Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2011-03-18 04:39 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2011-03-18 04:39 pm
[ SECRET POST #1536 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1536 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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[Young Justice]
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[Skins]
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[Michael Cera/Jesse Eisenberg]
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[Turisas]
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[Dragon Hunters]
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[Kanojo wo Mamoru 51 no Houhou]
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[Lorie]
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[Spacetrawler]
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[Justin Bieber]
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[Doctor Who]
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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
42. [SPOILERS for Naruto]
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43. [SPOILERS for Shoujo Kakumei Utena]
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44. [SPOILERS for Professor Layton and the Unwound Future]
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45. [SPOILERS for Apollo Justice]
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46. [SPOILERS for Dresden Files]
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47. [SPOILERS for Macross Frontier]
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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
48. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape/non-con and underage]
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49. [TRIGGER WARNING for ED]
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50. [TRIGGER WARNING for suicide]
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51. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]
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52. [TRIGGER WARNING for ED]
[Man vs Food]
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #219.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - ships it ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: What?
It does strike one as odd, and it doesn't seem to fit to what is known about his character up to then, which emphasizes what has also implicated throughout Kristoph's crossexamination: Kristoph seems to have had a lot of control over Klavier.
So I wouldn't say this one is a plot hole/bad writing.
But I have to agree: it seems odd that Phoenix did not investigate in that direction earlier. The game does not explain how Kristoph managed that nobody ever questioned who the hell gave Trucy the evidence or that nobody seemed to know he was the lawyer to defend Zak.
It really is a plot hole, and one of the many moments I asked myself throughout the AA games: Couldn't people have figured that one out before (or at least much easier)...?
Re: What?
(Anonymous) 2011-03-20 10:46 pm (UTC)(link)I don't think it's that Phoenix couldn't have accused Kris, but that he wanted to wait until he had enough proof to nail the guy, so that Kris couldn't worm his way out of it. Kris IS a great attorney, after all. If he'd made a good case for himself and gotten off, then he would've come after Phoenix for trying to get him arrested. Phoenix had to be cautious, he knew he was dealing with someone with the potential to be dangerous.
But Phoenix simply could NOT get enough decisive evidence. He could ask Trucy who gave her the letter, but we don't know how Kristoph managed this. He could have had anyone deliver it to Trucy for him, some random person who they would never track down. Phoenix also couldn't prove that Kristoph had ordered the evidence, since it wasn't included in the evidence file he had gotten from Kristoph. Vera was too terrified and vague on who had ordered the letter to testify. What's more, Kristoph had been smart enough to *defend* Phoenix when he lost his badge, making Kristoph look innocent in the process.
Phoenix had to lay low until he had enough evidence to nail the guy. It just took longer than expected.
Re: What?
And yes, laying low is what Phoenix did, he had the time to wait, after all.
Okay, as I don't know for sure how much Phoenix suspected throughout the seven years, I guess I shouldn't judge this part of the plot too hard.
Judging the logic behind the AA cases in general seems rather silly to me, as they all seem to be quite shaky constructs.
Re: What?
(Anonymous) 2011-03-21 03:26 am (UTC)(link)Klavier was always more about the truth than about winning, which I guess is why some people felt that he didn't put up as much of a fight as, say, Edgeworth. (Of course, Edgeworth was also all about the truth... later). I guess you could say Klavier might not have been as much as a plot hole, but how can no one else question why Klavier knew? Everyone just accepted that Klavier just happened to have a witness ready... no one even asks how.
And as to what that new anon (who didn't identify themselves as such, but I'd hope it was obvious what with our different stances on the whole thing) said about Kristoph not going in person... that means that there is someone else who ties Kristoph to the whole thing. Have Trucy explain what the guy looks like to an artist, ask the bailiffs if they've seen a person who look like that, hell, even search publicly. The guy is going to wonder what it all is about and when he finds out what happened, he most likely would just go "No, man, I got that from someone else." and then HE gives a description of Kristoph.
As long as there are humans involved, Kristoph can't keep it 100% airtight. But it's all treated like there was no way anyone could possibly solve this case seven years earlier. Heck, before Apollo questions Klavier's readiness with Klavier's prompting, no one does. And that's just strange.
Klavier is all like "I knew you'd do it if I pressed you hard enough." and no one even wonders how he knew.
Also, about Phoenix figuring that Kristoph is intimidating and possibly dangerous... when has that ever stopped him? Can you say Furio Tigre? Hello?
Re: What?
To all that, I can say that I do think it's all a bit weakly constructed, and it kept me wondering, too, that Phoenix did not suspect Kristoph earlier (and a lot more) by just following one of the leads you listed here.
Yet the other anon is right, none of these would have led to concrete evidence (especially if Kristoph just let some guy give Trucy the forged evidence - and random persons are hard to track by a photofit), so it wouldn't have made that much of a difference in the end.
Phoenix did obviously want to know all of the truth first, and make sure that Kristoph will be proven guilty, so he had to prepare and plan everything very thouroughly.
(Btw, I never said that Phoenix was intimidated by Kristoph - he sure as hell wasn't.)
As I said, I generally think AA cases are rather shaky constructs and always seem to lack a bit of logic or common sense.
Re: What?
(Anonymous) 2011-03-22 05:42 am (UTC)(link)It's true that it wouldn't have given him any concrete proof, but it would have proven his innocence in the form of a witness that could testify that he didn't know that it was fake and that he wasn't the one who ordered it. So while it might not lead to Kristoph's arrest (but again, it is very possible that this would actually prompt Klavier into action far earlier
and maybe he, due to looking so much like Kristoph, could get Vera to talk) it would lead to Phoenix being found innocent and therefore not losing his badge.(Oh, no! I know you never said that! that was in reaction to what the other anon said. Sorry for not making that clear.)
Yes, but most of them don't rely on dumbing a character down (why would he just take that note without question and then actually use it?!) or changing his entire personality, the way the last case in AJ did.
Re: What?
Okay, he had no time to prepare and he was desperate (and apparently also a little bit conceited by that time) - but not questioning the source after the trial seems a bit odd. (I can only suppose he did and it didn't lead to anything. We don't know a thing about what Phoenix already did over the 7 years, but I highly assume he investigated.)
It's not that I don't see your (and a lot of other peoples) problems with the case, and there are some things that seem questionable for me, too. But I wasn't aware that those cases always worked perfectly in AA?
It's probably because people look more closely into it because it was about Phoenix, but it didn't bug me more than any other logic problem in any other case.
I just played through the 3rd trial of Trials and Tribulations and... How could ANYONE believe Furio Tigre to be Phoenix?
Apart from that the guy was stupid as hell doing that, because it was bound to be discovered sooner or later. Even people who actually know Phoenix are too dumb to see he has suddenly red skin, talks like a gangster and rawrs like a tiger.
Re: What?
(Anonymous) 2011-03-22 03:12 pm (UTC)(link)Mostly, I just think that if they wanted to make a new game with a new protagonist and a different cast, that's what they should do. Their inclusion of Phoenix in the game just made it "Apollo Justice - Ace Attorney (just kidding, it's still all about Phoenix)" rather than "Apollo Justice - Ace Attorney". If they'd just had AJ be a game about the AJ characters and have Phoenix as some hardly-ever-there mentor because he's busy with his own cases... then Phoenix would just be there as a treat for the old audience and basically serve as Mia did in the first three games.
Oh, I know that there are logic problems with the other cases in the AA series. The reason I have a problem with this one in particular is because it, essentially, destroyed my favourite character and turned him into one I could hardly stomach because I thought he was an arse. It wasn't Phoenix. And the thought of him losing his badge kind of hurt, and then I play the case that's supposed to explain what happened... and this is what I got. It just made me angry that the case that made Phoenix lose his badge and turned him into an asshole was basically riddled with plot holes. (I never saw the point of Zak hiring a lawyer he "trusted" seeing as how he was planning on escaping from the beginning. Seriously, what was the point? There was none).
Yeah, I always thought it was a bit stupid that everyone believed that Furio Tigre was Phoenix, but at the same time... The judge has always been a bit... behind, Payne isn't exactly the smartest of characters and the people in the gallery... what's to say they know what Phoenix looks like? Besides, I kind of forgave them for it since they were consistent about it and had Phoenix playing the only sane man. "HOW IS THIS EVEN POSSIBLE?!" was pretty much Phoenix's feelings throughout the entire case.
"He said he'd gotten a tan."
I do love a good discussion.Re: What?
But I will never complain that they included Phoenix in this game. I do love lawyer!Phoenix for his dorkiness, coolness and his way of always speaking the player's mind - but I do love Hobo!Phoenix, too.
I don't mind so much that he changed a lot, I like it when people change throughout a series, and when I played him, his thoughts still felt very much like lawyer!Phoenix.
To me, Hobo!Phoenix is one of the most epic characters ever. There is nothing about him I don't love, so I am willing to forgive the game a lot of continuity problems.
Maybe the game would have been better storywise without him, but the stories of the games never really convinced me in the first place. I just pretend he did everything he could in that 7 years, and that his friends supported him in that time (especially with his plans with the jury system), and we just never heard of that because the game was about Apollo who Phoenix never told anything about his "missions".
It's the fact that I like almost every character so much that makes me enjoy AA, and especially Apollo Justice. I know that's personal preferences, and we can't argue about that, but I guess one is more willing to let such things slide if one enjoyed the cast and the relationships between almost all characters.
That Maggey did not notice bugged me more than the judge, who isn't the brightest anyway.
Edit: As for Zak Gramarye - god, that made no sense to me, either. Why choose a different lawyer if you want to escape (and thus ruin the case for him) anyway?
And then he wanted to ruin Phoenix career as poker player, too, for no real reason except for hurt pride - completely disregarding the fact the Phoenix was taking care of his daughter, for f*ck's sake.
Zak Gramarye apparently is the greatest jerk in existence - and this game is not made for second-guessing what's happening. Only few things really make sense there. Just wanted to add that I understand that this annoys you, especially since it had so much consequences for Phoenix, even if I can't get myself to mind this much, as I like the consequences.
Re: What?
(Anonymous) 2011-03-23 03:38 am (UTC)(link)I'll admit, during AJ case 1 I thought Hobo!Poenix was awesome what with the way he played with the court. But that was because I thought it was just an act to get the trial to go his way. When he acted the same way throughout the rest of the game... I didn't find him awesome anymore, just annoying and an asshole. (Then again, I didn't think Apollo got to shine at all in his first case. First Kristoph held his hand and led him through it, then Phoenix did. So as a lawyer, I just thought Apollo couldn't hold a candle to Phoenix, even when comparing their first cases).
Yeah, Maggey's ignorance of the whole thing was pretty weird, really.
I think someone called hiimsdaisy made a comic called "Zak Gramarye is a jerk" and it was hilarious. Because seriously, since he didn't care about the case and he was going to escape anyway, he might as well have gone with Kristoph no matter how lousy a person he turned out to be.
Yeah, way to go, man. Ruin Phoenix's, the man whose using his salary to take care of your daughter, source of income simply because you can't stand having lost in a game of poker to the guy. And it's really sucky of him because wow, he's not even going to take his little girl with him when he leaves, so he's going to leave her with a man who now has no source of income. Seriously.
Zak Gramarye is a jerk. And I think we can safely blame the entire mess on Zak Gramarye being a jerk.
Re: What?
Hobo!Phoenix's dry, obscure humour really appealed to me, and I like his hobo ways of dealing with things. I don't think he really doesn't care about things as much as he pretends, judging from his POV, and that it's mostly a facade, so that people underestimate him (or don't know what to make of him at all).
I have to agree on Apollo, though. Throughout the game, he was only used by either Kristoph or Phoenix or led by Klavier, and hardly got anything done on his own.
He grew throughout the game, but it left me wishing for another game where he finally gets to be a cool lawyer on his own.
Because he wasn't an Ace Attorney in the end, maybe he was about to be one, but there was still some independency missing.
Also, I totally want a game were Phoenix is back as a lawyer, after his hobo!phase. Something about Phoenix having been through all that and being in his 30s is just awesome to me. (Also, Maya would finally have grown up, yes, please?)
Both wishes are a bit conflicting, but I'll take whatever there may come, if only one of them comes true. I'd love a game where one could play both, though, although that will never happen.
Oh yes, it all boils down to Zak Gramarye being the biggest jerk ever.
I know, I read those comics! They were brilliant and helped me to laugh at a lot of things that bugged me in the game. ;D
Re: What?
(Anonymous) 2011-03-23 02:50 pm (UTC)(link)I just loved the earnest and nice guy (with a hidden sarcastic side) that Phoenix was. I'd much preferred it if Hobo!Phoenix was someone else. An original character, not Phoenix Wright mutated beyond recognition. I mean, keep Hobo!Phoenix, just... make him Hobo!Pablo or something instead. OTL
I would hope for a second AJ if only because I want a game where the characters can actually stand on their own and where the game doesn't lean on the first three. I wanted AJ to be about Apollo being an awesome lawyer... not Apollo being a puppet so Phoenix could be a lawyer despite being disbarred. >>;;;
I love her comics and her style and oh man. Zal Gramarye, you jerk. Just look what you did.
Re: What?
I actually enjoy good discussions very much, but it's hard to find those on f!s, which is why I usually don't contribute here.
But I have to say, I like the AA fandom in general - it seems to be a rather decent place.
Oh dear, Hobo!Pablo, that shouldn't amuse me that much. XD
I see your point, maybe it would have bugged me, too, if I hadn't started the series with AJ, and then started playing the first three. I guess that explains our different views, although I know a bunch of AA fans that were big fans of lawyer!Phoenix before AJ came out and did love Hobo a lot, too.
It probably depends on a personal view of this character?
Yeah, I do wish we'd get a game like that one day. On this regard, having Phoenix included in AJ sucked, because the characters, especially Apollo, don't really stand on their own.
Other Anon Here
(Anonymous) 2011-03-21 08:29 am (UTC)(link)Yeah, but losing his job must have been a real eyeopener, proving to Phoenix the hard way that he WASN'T invincible. Plus, he suddenly has a daughter to think about too. He couldn't take all the same risks as he used to, not with such a sobering experience as losing his badge giving him a big reality slap.
And the whole "human involvement" with Kris thing, people aren't as easy to track down from just a picture or description as you think. Kristoph could've hired anyone, someone who had nothing to do with the case, a drifter, or someone who normally resides in a foreign country even. Maybe Kristoph even killed the guy after to cover his tracks, he was willing to murder Vera after all. Trucy is only 6, just how accurate a description is she going to give? Consider how she described the event to Phoenix. Not exactly full of important details, was it?
And even if they by some miracle happened to find the guy, then the guy has to give an accurate description of Kris. And even if the guy happens to be good at giving descriptions, which not everyone is, he has no reason to tell the truth. What it comes down to is that it would only be testimony. There is no real decisive evidence, and we're told Kristoph is a competent defense attorney. He could weasel his way out of that one.
Phoenix is no fool. He knew he needed more than a shaky trail of "maybe" to pin this guy.
Other-Othernon
(Anonymous) 2011-03-22 02:58 am (UTC)(link)Also, this wouldn't be the first time that Phoenix has taken something from either some person on a case or just ganked it from a scene without checking it first. He's not exactly the most by-the-book lawyer we know.
Re: Other-Othernon
(Anonymous) 2011-03-22 06:50 am (UTC)(link)Ace Attorney Case 1. The only things that tie Larry to the murder of Cindy Stone is that he's the ex and Frank Sahwit's testimony. No fingerprints, nothing. And yet Larry is tried for the murder.
Ace Attorney Case 2. The only things that tie Maya to the murder of Mia Fey is the testimony of April May and a receipt with her name written in blood. Later, it is only the testimony of Redd White that ties Phoenix to the murder, and yet they are both tried as the murderers.
Throughout the games, you WILL use testimonies you've saved as EVIDENCE later on.
Sorry to say it, but what you just said is bullshit. Testimony is counted as evidence until proven incorrect. Frankly, if it hadn't been for Larry's testimony in Ace Attorney case 4, Edgeworth would've gone to jail for murder.
Please check your facts before you join the argument.
Also: There's a difference between picking something up at the crime scene or taking the bag with the vase from the defendants wife when you know who the murderer is and who the person giving you the evidence is and just randomly accepting a note that a little girl told you "Some guy" told her to give to you.
Nice try, but not a successful one.
Also: How do we know there's no security footage? It was never looked into in the first place. Hell, if all these loose ends had been looked into and proven not helpful, I wouldn't have minded AJ case 4. The problem is that they weren't. We're just not supposed to think about it.
Re: Other-Othernon
(Anonymous) 2011-03-22 10:55 pm (UTC)(link)Re: Other Anon Here
(Anonymous) 2011-03-22 01:08 pm (UTC)(link)Re: Other Anon Here
(Anonymous) 2011-03-22 10:55 pm (UTC)(link)