fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1555 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1555 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 076 secrets from Secret Submission Post #222.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - unreadable ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Not OP, but to throw in my two cents. I think by the time Dean was old enough for John to even consider anything, John would have been over Mary. Not over her as in forgotten her or even stopped grieving, but just not so mad with grief anymore that any possible relationship would just be an attempt to replace Mary. The way I see John, Mary soon became hardly more than a beautiful memory, while his sons were the people he actually cared about in the present. So I doubt he'd see in the son he actually loves now, in the present, the wife he lost, what, 15, 20 years ago. He loves Dean way too much to consider him a Mary replacement, in any way. Then again, I absolutely HATE the whole Dean-as-Mary-replacement trope in John/Dean fics, so I might be biased.

Out of curiosity, how is Dean like Mary? Apart from a few superficial things that apply to all Winchesters (stubborn, determined to protect their family to the point of being totally unreasonable/downright stupid) I don't think they have much in common.

I...guess...so. I don't know. I'm admitting right now that I have a very, VERY bad view of John Winchester and little to no like or sympathy for him as a character because of personal issues, and that's not likely to change any time soon. But there is something about the pairing of John/Dean that would strike me as 'John is trying to turn Dean into Mary'. I think it's just something that would always be in the back of my mind if I were to become an avid reader of John/Dean. And to be brutally honest (and I'm preparing myself for a dogpile here) I don't think a John/Dean relationship would have anything to do with love. They love each other, of course they love each other. But...

I'm not a Dean/Sam shipper either (my two OTP couples are Dean/Cas and Dean/Ruby) but if I had to choose between John/Dean and Dean/Sam, I'd pick the latter.

This is just my opinion. I'm not looking for a fight or anything, but neither of the relationships in question would be healthy in any way.

Now, as for the Dean being more like Mary issue? I've just always seen Dean as a lot like Mary. He's the son that resembles her physically and I think he has a lot of her personality in him. That's not to say he doesn't have his father in him because Lord knows he does, but I've always thought he's a lot like Mary and Sam's a lot like John. *shrug* Just my view on the character, I guess.

I'm not gonna try and turn you in a John fan or a John/Dean shipper, so I won't argue with you about this. I think it's difficult to ship John/Dean in any non-abusive way if you have a low opinion of John. It just doesn't work, so let's leave it at that.

Physically? Just 'cos he's blond-ish and so was she? As I said, I don't see the personality similarities at all. I always thought it was the other way around, Sam is very much like Mary (with added John stubbornness), while Dean is an awful lot like John.

Is there a single healthy relationship in SPN? Pretty much every single pairing I've seen in this fandom is fucked-up in one way or another, or usually in several ways. I can't even THINK of a healthy relationship unless you go completely AU.

You're absolutely right. It's hard to ship John with anyone (except maybe young!John/young!Mary because of the awesomeness that was them) when I can't see John as anything but a bad father who should have done better than he did. I mean, I'm pretty much in the small group of people who think John utterly WRECKED those boys and it's hard to see him in another light. Thing is, I'd like to. I'd like to love Daddy Winchester like the rest of fandom but I just can't quite get over that hill just yet. Maybe someday when I'm more at peace with my own monumental Daddy Issues.

I don't think Dean is blond or blond-ish and I've never understood why people say that he is. I see a lot of Mary in his eyes and his facial expressions, actually. Oh, see. Yeah, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I see Sam as pure John. I guess he's got some Mary in him. I think most kids have some of both of their parents in them but I see him as mostly John. He's got a lot of young!John in him. I really adored young!John, it was older!John that didn't sit well with me. Dean on the other hand seems to have equal doses of both John and Mary in him.

Oh, no. There's no relationship in SPN that is healthy. Well, actually...I guess you could argue that before the possession and then zombieness, Bobby and Karen (that was her name, right?) were pretty normal and healthy. ...And then there was badness and then they weren't so healthy and normal and happy anymore. The show is based on fucked up characters so of course that's going to transfer into their romantic lives.

I think I'm the only person who doesn't ship John/Mary, partly because I don't like Mary. ;) I get you about John, though - one of the main reasons I can't like Sam is because he reminds me too much of a few people I had in my life and who were anything but good for me. It's a pity about John, because he is such a fascinating, complex character. But sometimes you just can't like a character, and that's fine.

Maybe my Sam dislike is also why the idea of people comparing John and Sam drives me mad. It just makes me think, "how is this selfish, ungrateful, and often downright stupid brat anything like his father, who despite all his mistakes always put his sons' needs before his own needs, who tried to make the best out of a horrible situation that life put him in?" Buuuuuuut, yeah, we're all biased one way or another. I just have a problem with the Sams of the world.

Okay, but Bobby and his wife weren't really a SPN pairing, but just a normal couple who had no idea what would happen to them later. I just think I see where OP is coming from, even though the secret was maybe phrased badly: in a fandom where EVERY pairing, whether it's incest or not, is deeply fucked-up, crazy, unhealthy, abusive, unequal and generally far from normal, it does seem kinda unfair that John/Dean gets so much hate in fandom, and that the majority of fanfics are about evil!John raping Dean.

I sincerely hope you never procreate If you truly think that John put his kid's needs before his own.

Exactly! Sometimes you just can't like a character because of personal reasons. I like Sam and I think he's a sweetheart, but I'm not going to try and get you to like him. You don't like Sam. That's okay. I don't like John. That's okay. Maybe in another life I would have liked him but not in this one.

However, I think I'm going to have to disagree with you hard on the John putting his sons' needs before his own thing. I'm not going to be as harsh as the previous anon commenter, but I do not think John in any way put his kids first. That's my problem with him. I never saw ANY evidence that he had been a good father in that aspect.

But...Bobby and his wife were characters on the tv show Supernatural. I thought that was what made them a SPN pairing.

Back to the point! I guess I can sort of see where the OP was coming from, but at the same time I understand the other side of the argument too.

[ SECRET POST #1555 ]

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