Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2011-05-09 07:55 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2011-05-09 07:55 pm
[ SECRET POST #1588 ]
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 07 pages, 160 secrets from Secret Submission Post #227.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ], [ 1 2 - posted twice ],
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.
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(Anonymous) 2011-05-10 01:11 am (UTC)(link)no subject
Just 'cause they're ponies doesn't mean the show can't have racially awkward caricatures.
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And just on a personal note, I like seeing characters like this in shows. Not as caricatures and they don't have to be "tokens" but just showing that they exist is nice. There are people in the world who happen to fit an ethnic stereotype and I'm sure some of those people like seeing characters that they can relate to, even if not everyone else fits the stereotype too.
Like me. I happen to be the "token" black person in a group of all white and Asian friends and it's been like that most of my life since I was a teenager. When I hear people ranting about the "token" minority, it makes me roll my eyes most of the time because it's rarely a negative stereotype being perpetuated and often just a situation where a person is a minority in a group and deals with situations/relates to people a certain way as a result of that, or their differences are highlighted because they're the only one of that particular group. There's a difference between actually fighting racism and being so nervous about being PC that you erase certain groups from representation because they might be viewed as "offensive" or "un-PC."
p.s I'm totally not trying to come across as pissy or aggressive. If it sounds like that, it's definitely not my intention.
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I agree. The problem with Zecora is sort of that it was the first time the ponies had had race assigned in a human allegorical way, which then opened the question of, "Er...if that's what 'African' ponies look like, are all of the main cast ponies coded white? Are we supposed to read them that way?" And that sucks a little, 'cause up to that point, you could read the ponies any way you wanted, but now there's this pony over here that kind of shows that if the creators intended to make a pony-of-color, they'd design them differently than they did the other ponies. (In short: why aren't any of the main cast zebras if zebra = black, you know?)
I don't think it's malicious, just...awkward. And also, the anons above me asked how a show about rainbow-colored ponies can even be perceived as having race, so I kind of wanted to point out, "Yeah, it can be totally be done."
There are actually people in Africa that look and dress in a fashion that could be labeled as "tribal."
Sure. I don't object to their portrayal.
There's a big difference between "all [insert minority group here] are like this" and "this is a representation of one culture of [insert minority group here]."
Again, sure; I agree. But again...um, why aren't there zebras in the main cast if zebra = black? Why can't there be more than one type of zebra?
And just on a personal note, I like seeing characters like this in shows. Not as caricatures and they don't have to be "tokens" but just showing that they exist is nice. There are people in the world who happen to fit an ethnic stereotype and I'm sure some of those people like seeing characters that they can relate to, even if not everyone else fits the stereotype too.
I know. I see what you're saying. Going to the well on my own issues here, I'm a Jewish girl with curly brown hair and a big nose. This is how Jews are normally shown on TV.
When I hear people ranting about the "token" minority, it makes me roll my eyes most of the time because it's rarely a negative stereotype being perpetuated and often just a situation where a person is a minority in a group and deals with situations/relates to people a certain way as a result of that, or their differences are highlighted because they're the only one of that particular group.
...but, well, my daughter's got pin-straight blonde hair and blue eyes, and on television, Jews like her mostly don't exist. (Closest I can think of is Willow Rosenberg, pin-straight red hair and blue eyes, and...well, she is a token, because if you never saw "Amends" and whichever episode it was where Willow put the rocks on Tara's grave, you'd never have known.) I don't think that one incident of portraying a stereotype is necessarily the end of the world, but it starts to suck after a while when there's a long pattern of it, you know?
There's a difference between actually fighting racism and being so nervous about being PC that you erase certain groups from representation because they might be viewed as "offensive" or "un-PC."
I'm of two minds on this one. Of course erasing groups isn't right. I think that when people do their hand-wringing about "But if I don't do it perfectly, I'll get yelled at, so I just won't write PoC at all!", they're being ridiculous. I always think, "What are you, eight? You're old enough to take criticism and live. Criticism's how you become a better writer, anyway! Why on Earth would you deliberately erase something from your universe just to avoid getting some?"
But...if the best someone has manged to do is a stereotype or caricature or token, then I think criticizing that is valid.
p.s I'm totally not trying to come across as pissy or aggressive. If it sounds like that, it's definitely not my intention.
Oh, no, you totally don't. I hope I don't, either, 'cause that's also not my intention.
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I think TV really needs to make an effort to show ALL kinds of people and not just make sure they tick all the trope boxes.
I think that when people do their hand-wringing about "But if I don't do it perfectly, I'll get yelled at, so I just won't write PoC at all!", they're being ridiculous.
I honestly wish more people would take these kinds of risks in writing. If they never do, the portrayal of certain groups will never get better. The first step to being creative is that you can't be afraid to get it wrong. That's why kids are so much better at that stuff than adults.
I'm flexible with whether I think "stereotypes" and "tokens" are bad. Obviously caricatures are a complete distortion of what actually exists, but I think a character can fit a stereotype or be a "token" without that being a bad thing. I think that I differ from a lot of people because they flat out see those two things as bad. I guess being a "token" for so long has given me a different outlook on things.
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(Anonymous) 2011-05-10 05:34 pm (UTC)(link)Perhaps we should move into the territory for the people who don't fit into that small window?
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