fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1620 ]

[ SECRET POST #1620 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1620 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

[Ano Hi Mita Hana no Namae wo Bokutachi wa Mada Shiranai]

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02.

[Hetalia]

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03.

[Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha]

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04.

[Michael Silas/Asiel Hardison, Lady Gaga's dancers]

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05.

[Tiger & Bunny]

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06.

[Evangelion]

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07.

[Zero Punctuation]

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08.

[The Catherine Tate Show]

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09.

[Grimgrimoire]

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10.

[wonderful days, guyver, cowboy bebop, texhnolyze, togainu no chi, black lagoon, samurai champloo, aishiteruze baby, tenjo tenge]

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11.

[X-Men: First Class]

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12.

[Tales of the Abyss]

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13.

[Human Target]

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14.

[A Song of Ice and Fire]

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15.

[Masterchef Australia]

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16.

[Sucker Punch]

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17.

[Mystique]

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18.

[Workaholics]

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19.

[Mark Reads]

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20.

[Jamie Campbell Bower ]

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21.

[Hey Arnold!]

[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

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22. [SPOILERS for Homestuck]

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23. [SPOILERS for Gintama]

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24. [SPOILERS for Kamen Rider Kabuto]

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25. [SPOILERS for Loveless]

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26. [SPOILERS for Doctor Who]

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27. [SPOILERS for Mockingjay]

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28. [SPOILERS for Kung Fu Panda 2]

[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

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29. [TRIGGER WARNING for non-con]

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30. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]

[Game of Thrones]

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31. [TRIGGER WARNING for eating disorders]

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32. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]

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33. [TRIGGER WARNING for transphobia?]

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34. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]

[SPN]

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35. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape, pedophilia]

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36. [TRIGGER WARNING for eating disorders]

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37. [TRIGGER WARNING for self-injury, suicide]

[Manic Street Preachers]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #231.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

tempestuous redhead author avatar

who? The only redhead I remember is...Hands's wife? Who doesn't even get any screen time? idek.

We must be talking about different Robin Hobb series. There's a fair amount of homo- in the Farseer series, but the (very small amount of vaguely described) sex is all het. I've heard discouraging things about some of her other series, so I can understand if you have reservations about those. But try the Farseer series, because whatever you're complaining here about is not in it.

Molly and the Fool aren't in the Farseer series? Pretty sure they are.

You're right, though. It gets worse, so much worse, in some of her other series.

Molly wasn't a redhead...? There's one offhand mention of "reddish glint" offered by someone antagonistically trying to sexualize her, but no Mary Sue-esque odes to her fiery, sparking locks or whatever it is you seem to be implying.

She wasn't the POV character, and she wasn't even on screen for most of the series. I don't even know how it's possible for her to be a wish fulfilment avatar. She'd need to be actually in the story. Yikes, if female characters can get accused of being Mary Sues when they're not even present, we're really screwed.

The Fool never identified himself as homosexual, and never had sex. There's a weird scene in the last book which MIGHT have been sexual, but who even knows what was going on there. Certainly it wasn't a sexy fantasy in any case.

I won't be reading RH's other series any time soon. Some excerpts and RH's own bizarre exclamations about fanfic are enough for me.

Molly was a redhead. It's mentioned a few times, and no she doesn't have to be a POV character to get with the two men described as the hottest guys in the series and exist as an author proxy (clearly). It was actually my guy friends who pointed out that she has basically no flaws, is always right, exists as an object to be adored, and shares many traits in common with the author - I'd missed it until then, just found her largely flat. They're right, though.

You haven't read the Tawny Man or the Liveship Traders series, I see. Not only is Molly's position much clearer, but the Fool does identify himself as homosexual. Just about the most stereotypical fangirl representation of a homosexual male I've ever seen in print.

Seriously, dude, you need to start reading books before you critique them.

We only ever see Molly through the eyes of the boy harbouring a lifelong teenage infatuation with her. I found her largely flat too, for that obvious reason. I found her fairly obtuse as well, and I'm not sure that wasn't intended to be perceived as a flaw by the author.

I have NO idea what RH's personal traits are. The fact remains that Molly was absent for most of the series (both Farseer and Tawny Man, and obviously Liveship), and her role in the story was very limited. I have my own issues with the end of Tawny Man (don't we all), but I think it's just skewed to claim that Molly in any way dominates the story.

If you want to talk about how Molly and her insipid heteronormative happy-ever-after comes in completely out of left field at the very end, though, go for it!

The Fool doesn't identify as male, and never says that he's attracted exclusively to males, or that his sexual history is limited to males. I'm not sure what you mean by "stereotypical fangirl representation...". I could guess, but I'm tired of chasing your cheap insinuations and condescending bullshit.

I never claimed Molly dominated the story. That's something you've invented. What I said about her - that she shares traits with the author, is tempestuous, flawless, and has the two most attractive men in the series falls for her - are true and you haven't even address them, just gone off on your own tangents.

The Fool is described as "he" and while he does dress as a woman at one point Fitz calls him he and he does not correct this, ever. You're right that he might be better described as bisexual, though, my bad - he does say that gender doesn't concern him with regard to lovers. You're right, there.

I could guess, but I'm tired of ~~chasing your cheap insinuations and condescending bullshit~~ you pointing out the flaws in the interpretations of books I'm gravely underselling as hard as I possibly can to make my point.

Fixed that for you. I'd be more contrite if you hadn't condescended to me from the very beginning of this conversation, with the assumption that I could not possibly be correct about book which - in your own admission - you haven't read (Hobb's other works, though you're stating differently now) or barely remember (GRRM's). Don't argue tone when your own's been appalling.

I said I don't know which of the author's traits she shares, and that I perceived a flaw. That's addressing your points as much as I can. Don't think I can do much about "tempestuous", as it doesn't mean anything one way or another about the quality or Mary Sue-ish-ness of a character.

The reason it matters whether or not Molly dominates the story is, that the criticism she's an author-avatar doesn't matter if she doesn't. If she doesn't participate much in the story, it doesn't matter if she's modeled after RH or Stephanie Myer or someone's cat.

I replied to "lawl" with honest questions, as you seemed to be talking about a completely different series. I still don't recall where Molly was described as a redhead, so I've never imagined her that way. And since there is no homosexuality in the series - and there IS homosexuality in other of RH's books - I think it's a justifiable assumption. You've been condescending from the start, not me.

I've read Farseer, Liveship, and Tawny Man, since they are all in the same world and timeline. RH has written other books besides those.

If she doesn't participate much in the story, it doesn't matter if she's modeled after RH or Stephanie Myer or someone's cat.

It does matter, because - even if she is in the story for brief interludes, like Clive Cussler's self-insert in his Dirk Pitt books - is it still wish-fulfillment. And that's what we're talking about here - female fantasy. Which Molly is, for the reasons I've stated, and you still haven't challenged. You're making this about "Mary-Sueishness" or whatever, something I never even mentioned. For the record, I said she was an "author avatar" instead of a "Mary-Sue" because I don't think she is the latter, at all. Like Clive Cussler's green-eyed wanderer, she's just fantastical wish-fufillment.

And since there is no homosexuality in the series

Yes, there was. The Fool was male; his sexual love interest Fitz was male. You're correct that the Fool is better described as bisexual, but now you're going overboard for the sake of making a point. It isn't helpful.

You've been condescending from the start, not me.

~~I know you are but what am I~~ Yes, you have been. But I could have responded better, true. Though I think this was the crux of our miscommunication: I assumed you meant you'd only read the original assassins trilogy and not her "other works" - meaning the Tawny Man, Liveship Traders, etc. - hence my "try reading the books" was not meant to be condescending, it was meant to be a statement of fact because I thought you had just said that you'd not read them. I'm sorry you took it that way, that would be offensive, yes.

I know she has other books. Like the Soldier's Son triology, and Dragon's Keeper. I've read them all - I love Robin Hobb. But she absolutely does indulge in female fantasy and wish fufillment.

Then again, so do most of my favourite male fantasy authors. This was all in defense of GRRM doing just that.

The Fool's "sexual love interest" was way, way less sexual than any other romantic relationship in the series. He didn't have sex with Fitz (well...did he? Can you tell?) or any other man, "she" didn't correct people's pronouns as Amber, he could have been bisexual, asexual, female, intersex, neuter, or a third sex - we don't know. If you say that the Farseer series contains homosexuality, it just reads to me as what so many conservative audiences typically do, which is have a very much more sensitive measure for "sexuality" when it's homo-.

I take "homosexuality" to mean "sex between men". Homoerotic subtext or homoromantic/genderqueer content are different things. Especially when you consider that there are confirmed men who actually have sex with other men in other of RH's books.

If you're convinced Molly is an author avatar, I can't contradict you because again, I don't know how she resembles RH. I do think that assessment is questionable, and I do think Molly's role in the story is so limited that her status as a possible wish fulfilment avatar doesn't make the series as a whole an exercise in female wish fulfilment.

But Fitz, as you'll recall, sees the Fool naked, and calls him "he" - so the Fool is at the very least biologically male, even if s/he does identify as a woman, genderqueer, other - it's besides the point because whether or not other people in her other series are "men having sex with men" it does not automatically mean "there is no homosexuality" in the Farseer trilogy because it lacks gratituous sex scenes. Again, that's hopelessly reductionist, and it detracts from rather than adds to your point. Erasing the Fool's sexual interest in Fitz - a sexual interest he states in the Tawny Man - because it's never culminated in physical sex is very dubious. I like the Fool, even if I do find Hobb's representation of him problematic. He's presented as biologically and gendered male and he has an interest in another male. I take him at his word.

Fair enough, but I think it quite clearly does, as per Clive Cussler's self-insert wanderer. Again, a limited role, but equally flawless (he always knows the key to helping Dirk, whereas Molly always knows the best solution and wins men's hearts effortlessly). If by your personal definition an author avatar can't play a small role, well, I suppose that's your own personal definition, then. I don't happen to share it.

The Fool didn't necessarily state a sexual interest in Fitz. He said he chose not to define his attraction in those terms. He could just as easily have been asexual as anything else.

Also not recalling where Fitz confirmed Fool was "biologically male" - only "different".

I'm not making any point here besides justifying my assumption that you were talking about a different RH series, since there is one that fits the description "contains homosexuality" much better than the Farseer series...and fits the description "contains stereotypical homosexuality" even better.

He stated enough of a sexual interest in Fitz to make Fitz distinctly uncomfortable with it.

Also not recalling where Fitz confirmed Fool was "biologically male" - only "different".

At the end of the third book of the original Assassin's trilogy. He sees the Fool naked, and immediately and forever after unambiguously codes him male for the rest of the series. Take from that what you will, but I think the implication is obvious. If he did not see male genitalia, his impression would be rather different; furthermore, since the basis for Fitz' repulsion is the Fool's status as male-coded in the Tawny Man trilogy, if the Fool were female or ambiguously sexed that would have been a good time to bring it up.

I consider homoeroticism and homoromanticism to fall under the category of homosexuality, but I suppose that if you don't this truly is just an issue of semantics. Very well. As for saying this about the Farseer series when there are better examples of fangirl homosexuality - oh, you bet there are. I won't deny that for a second. But the Farseer series is where a lot of Hobb's later issues (even stylistic ones) begin to rear their heads. I see the origin of the aforementioned stereotypical homosexuality in the Fool. (Just as the origin of the real time travel that plagues the Soldier's Son trilogy is in the Tawny Man. Eargh.)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #1620 ]

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