fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1755 ]

[ SECRET POST #1755 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1755 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 09 pages, 206 secrets from Secret Submission Post #251.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

For the record, I think I generally do like you, as you seem to be eloquent and well-spoken, and while I see your defensiveness as excessive and somewhat hostile, I do know that you have reason to feel this way and I respect that.

I appreciate that, and thank you. I do get hostile, particularly in the face of egregious sexism; I admit that my combativeness can be a fatal flaw, but I simply can't help it when someone is being really, horribly sexist (or racist, homophobic, etc.).

Yes, bitch and cunt and pussy are generally not ever seen as positive in any way. But I've got guy friends that would absolutely LOVE to be called girly, and I've got girl friends that would LOATHE being called manly.

Those are individuals, though, and we're not talking about things on the individual level. I'd hate to be called manly, too. But culturally and societally speaking, being considered or called things that mean "like a man" are positive, while being considered or called things that mean "like a woman" are intensely negative. The prevalence of insults like those listed above are proof of this. The vast majority of common gendered insults are female-oriented. The most severe are female-oriented, as well.

And generally the male equivalent does not carry the same weight, you're right. But that still doesn't make it okay.

Okay? I don't remember saying that gendered insults were ever okay. I do tend to care less about male-oriented insults, though, simply because a) there aren't many of them and b) they are so far lacking in severity that they're hardly worth my time. I police my own language to avoid slurs against women because they're offensive and sexist. However, slurs against men are not sexist (because again, you cannot be sexist against a man), so I don't feel the need to police my language the same way. (Though I do tend to use "jerk" or "jackass" a lot more often than I use "dick"... which is the only male-oriented insult I can actually think of right now. Which is kind of telling, isn't it?)

Misogyny started somewhere. It hasn't always been a problem.

Actually, yeah, it has always been a problem. The freaking Bible is one of the most sexist pieces of literature out there. Misogyny has been a problem more or less throughout recorded history. How do you honestly not know this? I want to know, because seriously, your teachers in high school did not do their jobs. For how many centuries were women denied the right to even hold a job? To be anything but mothers and homemakers? To be anything but a mother, period? To vote? (Protip: Women got the right to vote in 1920. Before that, only white men could vote. Think about that when you say things like "misogyny hasn't always been a problem".) Words and phrases denigrating women or using a comparison to women as an insult have existed for even longer -- I remember an insulting scrawl found in some ancient Greek ruins claiming so-and-so was "weak like a woman", which iirc predated the Roman empire.

and that's just looking at white western culture, without even looking at all the other societies

it's honestly depressing when in history class, they talk about how, for example, during certain dynasties chinese women had a relatively elevated status when compared to other time periods (for example, when foot binding was popular) because they were allowed to get divorces, could manage household finances and were not forbidden by law to remarry after being widowed, even though it was frowned upon. and of course then later on these 'privileges' were revoked.

or considering philosophers like confucius and aristotle were of the express opinion that women's place is beneath men. it's not like misogyny is a ~relatively recent~ development, i don't understand how mondaisenshi can honestly believe that

Actually, yeah, it has always been a problem. The freaking Bible is one of the most sexist pieces of literature out there.

Forgive me for getting lazy with this discussion as I get tired: In the animal kingdom, females are often the sex to be more powerful, physically and culturally. And I will admit that there is misogyny throughout recorded history. But that's not "always," and while it's a long-ass time and more than enough to give cause for concern, I simply meant that everything starts SOMEWHERE.

Because seriously, men are never going to be treated like women are.

This is an attitude I take issue with. Maybe it's because my mind works better in details and smaller scales, but I only know how to handle things in scale. In this situation, on an individual, face-to-face basis. And this is what I mean when I say that hate is never okay, regardless of the historical background, and that people should be treated as individuals. This is also where I see the double standards that really do bother me.

... you should really consider that a lot of women have really good reasons to hate and/or distrust men.

And I understand that sometimes I will face a situation I don't understand, and there are times when things are bigger than I will know - assuming that many in this situation won't want to get into it on a daily basis. But if they don't feel like getting into this with me, which I can understand, then I can't know. And it doesn't seem fair to hold ALL men responsible for the experiences someone had, and it doesn't seem fair to expect that people shouldn't be defended - even men - from biases given to them for being born into a demographic.

Imagine that -- a man telling a woman they're being hurtful without resorting to calling her a "bitch" or a "feminazi" or a "man-hater"!

And a lot of internet feminists will jump to conclusions for someone's careless choice of words. I've seen things turn all too quickly to a debate of misogyny over completely unrelated topics, and despite how it may seem here, I'm really getting sick of fingers being pointed by all too many people for something as innocent as expressing a favoritism to male characters or thinking that a female character is boring. Sometimes things are just what they are, not everything is heavy with subtext.

As for the rest, I apologize, I am getting flustered with having this debate too many times. I have committed an awful taboo and am bringing into this experiences from other conversations. (I have a lot of feelings too.) I cannot currently direct you to examples of misogyny being used in the name of bitching, because I don't remember seeing any in this thread. In fact, I don't recall seeing this for months, in Fandomsecrets, itself. Which, honestly, I am very glad to have realized that I get to eat those words. I'm glad I've been disproven, here. And I'm again sorry that I was unclear in saying that I didn't mean that Davidshepard himself was being perfectly nice. This is another part of the unprovable history I've had within these debates.

I'm sorry I pulled that card, and I'm sorry I did not choose my words more carefully. But if I may continue, on the last bit:

You can't discuss sexism without acknowledging and dealing with the privilege men have over women in society. And you sure as fuck can't educate a single person without acknowledging and dealing with said person's ignorance.

And I'm quite alright with these concepts being addressed. But as much as these words have been abused and misused, it would be really refreshing if people could find alternate ways of expressing the same views because, as I said, it feels like a stale meme after all the times it's been thrown around improperly. (Again, to be clear, I don't see either being used incorrectly in this thread, but in past personal experiences over much more trivial issues they have been worn so thin that if they were socks, there would be holes in all the toes and the heel, as well.)

Pardon me, I meant to respond to one of the third part of that comment... I forgot that step, though......

feminist_101

ontd_feminism

lurk a while on these communities, maybe you'll get it eventually

http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/778156.html?thread=491968428#t491968428

i think it's fair to say it's utterly wasted on mondaisenshi. they are very set on remaining completely ignorant about everything and just blocking everything out so they can whine more about how men are being oppressed by feminists.

lol called it. right down to the "so they can whine more about how men are being oppressed by feminists"

Oh, did I say that? Hmm, it seems you and I don't seem capable of communicating clearly, somehow...

And it doesn't seem fair to hold ALL men responsible for the experiences someone had, and it doesn't seem fair to expect that people shouldn't be defended - even men - from biases given to them for being born into a demographic.

idk do you forget what you type or what?

Yes, because if some woman was being rude or hateful to my brother without giving me or him a reason, I should just smile and assume they've got a good reason?

Okay.

I'm done with THIS thread.

if your brother's being a sexist asshole and a woman calls him out on it, you probably should either not involve yourself in the conversation or try to help him understand why what he said or did is wrong

but considering you yourself have no understanding of sexism or misogyny, i can see why that would be difficult for you

and please, do be done with this conversation. go whine to your friends about the mean feminazis on the internet, or console davidshephard on being chased out by a bunch of ugly manhating bitches

or, if you have any interest at all in learning about feminism and how to get rid of misogyny, you can go educate yourself a little by researching things like feminism and misogynist language and rape culture and such

In the animal kingdom, females are often the sex to be more powerful, physically and culturally. And I will admit that there is misogyny throughout recorded history. But that's not "always," and while it's a long-ass time and more than enough to give cause for concern, I simply meant that everything starts SOMEWHERE.

Are you fucking kidding me. I mean, seriously, I am being as civil as possible but ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. You are using examples from.. animals, in a discussion about sexism in human society. Are you fucking kidding me. You have to be. I can't accept that this is not trolling. This is way, way inappropriate. You can't say that sexism hasn't been around pretty much forever because some female animals are stronger than the males of their species. Not LEAST because which sex is stronger in animals has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO with how human women are TREATED, culturally and societally. An argument could be made that women are stronger than men (as they go through childbirth, which would actually physically kill a biological man if they went through it). That doesn't change how they are treated and how they have been treated throughout history. Your analogy is honestly disgusting, and your entire comment there attempts very clearly to downplay and dismiss the very real, very significant impact of sexism throughout history. I mean, seriously, "but that's not always"? IT'S FUCKING CLOSE ENOUGH. omg.

And this is what I mean when I say that hate is never okay, regardless of the historical background, and that people should be treated as individuals.

No, seriously, even on an individual level, MEN WILL NEVER EVER EVER BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST ON THE LEVEL THAT WOMEN ARE, FOR BEING MEN. EVER. (Obviously intersecting factors such as race, sexual orientation, etc. will change overall levels, but not on the sex scale.) Again, please stop trivializing the experiences of women who have experienced misogyny by equating so-called "misandry" to misogyny.

And it doesn't seem fair to hold ALL men responsible for the experiences someone had

It isn't "fair." It's generally not a logical reaction; reactions to great traumas rarely are. I'm not claiming it's "fair." But it is justified, and their feelings are valid.

Edited 2011-10-25 05:48 (UTC)

and it doesn't seem fair to expect that people shouldn't be defended - even men - from biases given to them for being born into a demographic.

Here's the thing: men don't face a lot of biases. Like, seriously, no men shouldn't all be grouped together and insulted or whatever, but it's not like they have it tough just for being men. Please stop acting like there's some huge fucking epidemic of men being discriminated against for being men, because there ISN'T. AND THERE NEVER WILL BE.

And a lot of internet feminists will jump to conclusions for someone's careless choice of words.

Misogynistic slurs =/= "careless choice of words." Ditto that, using misogynistic words and phrases like "bitch"? Not a "careless choice of words," however the person intended it -- it's still misogynistic language and should be called out. (P.S. You used "bitch" several times in your comments here after being told why it's offensive. Please stop.) Please, again, stop trivializing the experiences and feelings of feminists who object to sexist language by calling them/us "internet feminists" and referring to their valid criticisms as "jumping to conclusions."

I'm really getting sick of fingers being pointed by all too many people for something as innocent as expressing a favoritism to male characters or thinking that a female character is boring.

In some cases this may be valid -- I've seen people called misogynists simply for disliking a given female character, and that's not okay. However, I see no reason why we shouldn't have a discussion about why people tend to prefer male characters over female characters, or why people would find a female character "boring" when, if she were male, they would be huge fans. And sometimes, people really do just have stupid, sexist reasons for disliking female characters. It's really not all in our heads.

I'm sorry I pulled that card, and I'm sorry I did not choose my words more carefully.

Thank you for your apology.

But as much as these words have been abused and misused, it would be really refreshing if people could find alternate ways of expressing the same views because, as I said, it feels like a stale meme after all the times it's been thrown around improperly.

I... don't see why they should be obligated to. If those words fit the bill, then they fit the bill.

Your responses here have trivialized misogyny and have equated it to the negative treatment of men in a way that is really, seriously gross and sexist. I would ask that you please, please do some reading, especially of feminist literature, so that you can become better-educated on this issue. I'm serious here -- your responses have been so utterly, mind-bogglingly trivializing and full of "but what about the men" and criticizing and invalidating feminists and so on that it honestly leaves me a little worried because I just can't imagine someone honestly being so ignorant about misogyny and feminism as to say some of these things and make some of the comparisons you're making here. Please read some books. And please never, ever again go into a discussion about misogyny saying that women haven't always been oppressed because some female animals are stronger than the males. That is one of the most disgusting things I've seen recently on the internet, and I practically live here. Seriously.

actually I thought black men got the right to vote before any women did (correct me if I'm wrong please)

this comment has no relevance except being OCD about US history

You're right, actually -- my Google-fu says black men got the right to vote in 1870. It took 50 more years for women to get the same.

I apologize for the mistake, I should have been more judicious in my research.

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[ SECRET POST #1755 ]

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