fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1755 ]

[ SECRET POST #1755 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1755 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 09 pages, 206 secrets from Secret Submission Post #251.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

If you want to believe I'm a misogynist, that's fine. But you don't know me. And I don't have to prove or defend myself to you.

For the record, I think I generally do like you, as you seem to be eloquent and well-spoken, and while I see your defensiveness as excessive and somewhat hostile, I do know that you have reason to feel this way and I respect that.

we've got calling someone a "girl," "girly," "womanlike," "lady," "bitch," "cunt," "pussy," and on and on and on.

Yes, bitch and cunt and pussy are generally not ever seen as positive in any way. But I've got guy friends that would absolutely LOVE to be called girly, and I've got girl friends that would LOATHE being called manly. Those words in particular, I think, are less about the words themselves being negative and more about them being not what someone was aiming for in their appearance/behavior/etc. And generally the male equivalent does not carry the same weight, you're right. But that still doesn't make it okay. Misogyny started somewhere. It hasn't always been a problem. And while misandry is mostly a non-issue (though again, I feel that it does exist, though it is unquestionably barely a fraction of the problem that misogyny is), treating men like dirt just because there's no history to amplify the effect will, in fact, be the foundation that it currently lacks in being an act of sexism, by your definition.

And seriously, the day I take a man seriously when he gets up and starts talking about how feminists behave and how feminists should conduct themselves is the day I give up any and all respect for myself as a feminist.

How about when people get up and point out when someone's behavior is excessive and hurtful? Should it necessarily matter that someone is a feminist if their words are hurtful? Should it matter if the person being insulted is male?

I mean, really, I'm not trying to say that deleted-account is right. But it does bother me when some people - not you, from my limited view here, but some people - use causes such as feminism to act however they want and disregard the consequences because their demographic has been mistreated in the past. It bothers me when the name of equality is used to torment and attack perfectly nice people; that just because someone happens to be part of the "privileged" majority, they don't get any voice, even in defending their own words or actions.

It also bothers me that these conversations cannot, physically CANNOT, take place without the words "privilege" and "ignorance" showing up. The words have been used and abused by so many people that they've begun to lose all meaning. Even when used correctly, they've begun to feel like a meme gone wrong...

Go join a feminist101 community or something, seriously. You are so completely clueless it hurts. Learn a little something about context and oppression.

Yeah, okay.

For the record, I think I generally do like you, as you seem to be eloquent and well-spoken, and while I see your defensiveness as excessive and somewhat hostile, I do know that you have reason to feel this way and I respect that.

I appreciate that, and thank you. I do get hostile, particularly in the face of egregious sexism; I admit that my combativeness can be a fatal flaw, but I simply can't help it when someone is being really, horribly sexist (or racist, homophobic, etc.).

Yes, bitch and cunt and pussy are generally not ever seen as positive in any way. But I've got guy friends that would absolutely LOVE to be called girly, and I've got girl friends that would LOATHE being called manly.

Those are individuals, though, and we're not talking about things on the individual level. I'd hate to be called manly, too. But culturally and societally speaking, being considered or called things that mean "like a man" are positive, while being considered or called things that mean "like a woman" are intensely negative. The prevalence of insults like those listed above are proof of this. The vast majority of common gendered insults are female-oriented. The most severe are female-oriented, as well.

And generally the male equivalent does not carry the same weight, you're right. But that still doesn't make it okay.

Okay? I don't remember saying that gendered insults were ever okay. I do tend to care less about male-oriented insults, though, simply because a) there aren't many of them and b) they are so far lacking in severity that they're hardly worth my time. I police my own language to avoid slurs against women because they're offensive and sexist. However, slurs against men are not sexist (because again, you cannot be sexist against a man), so I don't feel the need to police my language the same way. (Though I do tend to use "jerk" or "jackass" a lot more often than I use "dick"... which is the only male-oriented insult I can actually think of right now. Which is kind of telling, isn't it?)

Misogyny started somewhere. It hasn't always been a problem.

Actually, yeah, it has always been a problem. The freaking Bible is one of the most sexist pieces of literature out there. Misogyny has been a problem more or less throughout recorded history. How do you honestly not know this? I want to know, because seriously, your teachers in high school did not do their jobs. For how many centuries were women denied the right to even hold a job? To be anything but mothers and homemakers? To be anything but a mother, period? To vote? (Protip: Women got the right to vote in 1920. Before that, only white men could vote. Think about that when you say things like "misogyny hasn't always been a problem".) Words and phrases denigrating women or using a comparison to women as an insult have existed for even longer -- I remember an insulting scrawl found in some ancient Greek ruins claiming so-and-so was "weak like a woman", which iirc predated the Roman empire.

and that's just looking at white western culture, without even looking at all the other societies

it's honestly depressing when in history class, they talk about how, for example, during certain dynasties chinese women had a relatively elevated status when compared to other time periods (for example, when foot binding was popular) because they were allowed to get divorces, could manage household finances and were not forbidden by law to remarry after being widowed, even though it was frowned upon. and of course then later on these 'privileges' were revoked.

or considering philosophers like confucius and aristotle were of the express opinion that women's place is beneath men. it's not like misogyny is a ~relatively recent~ development, i don't understand how mondaisenshi can honestly believe that

Actually, yeah, it has always been a problem. The freaking Bible is one of the most sexist pieces of literature out there.

Forgive me for getting lazy with this discussion as I get tired: In the animal kingdom, females are often the sex to be more powerful, physically and culturally. And I will admit that there is misogyny throughout recorded history. But that's not "always," and while it's a long-ass time and more than enough to give cause for concern, I simply meant that everything starts SOMEWHERE.

Because seriously, men are never going to be treated like women are.

This is an attitude I take issue with. Maybe it's because my mind works better in details and smaller scales, but I only know how to handle things in scale. In this situation, on an individual, face-to-face basis. And this is what I mean when I say that hate is never okay, regardless of the historical background, and that people should be treated as individuals. This is also where I see the double standards that really do bother me.

... you should really consider that a lot of women have really good reasons to hate and/or distrust men.

And I understand that sometimes I will face a situation I don't understand, and there are times when things are bigger than I will know - assuming that many in this situation won't want to get into it on a daily basis. But if they don't feel like getting into this with me, which I can understand, then I can't know. And it doesn't seem fair to hold ALL men responsible for the experiences someone had, and it doesn't seem fair to expect that people shouldn't be defended - even men - from biases given to them for being born into a demographic.

Imagine that -- a man telling a woman they're being hurtful without resorting to calling her a "bitch" or a "feminazi" or a "man-hater"!

And a lot of internet feminists will jump to conclusions for someone's careless choice of words. I've seen things turn all too quickly to a debate of misogyny over completely unrelated topics, and despite how it may seem here, I'm really getting sick of fingers being pointed by all too many people for something as innocent as expressing a favoritism to male characters or thinking that a female character is boring. Sometimes things are just what they are, not everything is heavy with subtext.

As for the rest, I apologize, I am getting flustered with having this debate too many times. I have committed an awful taboo and am bringing into this experiences from other conversations. (I have a lot of feelings too.) I cannot currently direct you to examples of misogyny being used in the name of bitching, because I don't remember seeing any in this thread. In fact, I don't recall seeing this for months, in Fandomsecrets, itself. Which, honestly, I am very glad to have realized that I get to eat those words. I'm glad I've been disproven, here. And I'm again sorry that I was unclear in saying that I didn't mean that Davidshepard himself was being perfectly nice. This is another part of the unprovable history I've had within these debates.

I'm sorry I pulled that card, and I'm sorry I did not choose my words more carefully. But if I may continue, on the last bit:

You can't discuss sexism without acknowledging and dealing with the privilege men have over women in society. And you sure as fuck can't educate a single person without acknowledging and dealing with said person's ignorance.

And I'm quite alright with these concepts being addressed. But as much as these words have been abused and misused, it would be really refreshing if people could find alternate ways of expressing the same views because, as I said, it feels like a stale meme after all the times it's been thrown around improperly. (Again, to be clear, I don't see either being used incorrectly in this thread, but in past personal experiences over much more trivial issues they have been worn so thin that if they were socks, there would be holes in all the toes and the heel, as well.)

Pardon me, I meant to respond to one of the third part of that comment... I forgot that step, though......

feminist_101

ontd_feminism

lurk a while on these communities, maybe you'll get it eventually

http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/778156.html?thread=491968428#t491968428

i think it's fair to say it's utterly wasted on mondaisenshi. they are very set on remaining completely ignorant about everything and just blocking everything out so they can whine more about how men are being oppressed by feminists.

lol called it. right down to the "so they can whine more about how men are being oppressed by feminists"

Oh, did I say that? Hmm, it seems you and I don't seem capable of communicating clearly, somehow...

And it doesn't seem fair to hold ALL men responsible for the experiences someone had, and it doesn't seem fair to expect that people shouldn't be defended - even men - from biases given to them for being born into a demographic.

idk do you forget what you type or what?

Yes, because if some woman was being rude or hateful to my brother without giving me or him a reason, I should just smile and assume they've got a good reason?

Okay.

I'm done with THIS thread.

if your brother's being a sexist asshole and a woman calls him out on it, you probably should either not involve yourself in the conversation or try to help him understand why what he said or did is wrong

but considering you yourself have no understanding of sexism or misogyny, i can see why that would be difficult for you

and please, do be done with this conversation. go whine to your friends about the mean feminazis on the internet, or console davidshephard on being chased out by a bunch of ugly manhating bitches

or, if you have any interest at all in learning about feminism and how to get rid of misogyny, you can go educate yourself a little by researching things like feminism and misogynist language and rape culture and such

In the animal kingdom, females are often the sex to be more powerful, physically and culturally. And I will admit that there is misogyny throughout recorded history. But that's not "always," and while it's a long-ass time and more than enough to give cause for concern, I simply meant that everything starts SOMEWHERE.

Are you fucking kidding me. I mean, seriously, I am being as civil as possible but ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. You are using examples from.. animals, in a discussion about sexism in human society. Are you fucking kidding me. You have to be. I can't accept that this is not trolling. This is way, way inappropriate. You can't say that sexism hasn't been around pretty much forever because some female animals are stronger than the males of their species. Not LEAST because which sex is stronger in animals has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO with how human women are TREATED, culturally and societally. An argument could be made that women are stronger than men (as they go through childbirth, which would actually physically kill a biological man if they went through it). That doesn't change how they are treated and how they have been treated throughout history. Your analogy is honestly disgusting, and your entire comment there attempts very clearly to downplay and dismiss the very real, very significant impact of sexism throughout history. I mean, seriously, "but that's not always"? IT'S FUCKING CLOSE ENOUGH. omg.

And this is what I mean when I say that hate is never okay, regardless of the historical background, and that people should be treated as individuals.

No, seriously, even on an individual level, MEN WILL NEVER EVER EVER BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST ON THE LEVEL THAT WOMEN ARE, FOR BEING MEN. EVER. (Obviously intersecting factors such as race, sexual orientation, etc. will change overall levels, but not on the sex scale.) Again, please stop trivializing the experiences of women who have experienced misogyny by equating so-called "misandry" to misogyny.

And it doesn't seem fair to hold ALL men responsible for the experiences someone had

It isn't "fair." It's generally not a logical reaction; reactions to great traumas rarely are. I'm not claiming it's "fair." But it is justified, and their feelings are valid.

Edited 2011-10-25 05:48 (UTC)

and it doesn't seem fair to expect that people shouldn't be defended - even men - from biases given to them for being born into a demographic.

Here's the thing: men don't face a lot of biases. Like, seriously, no men shouldn't all be grouped together and insulted or whatever, but it's not like they have it tough just for being men. Please stop acting like there's some huge fucking epidemic of men being discriminated against for being men, because there ISN'T. AND THERE NEVER WILL BE.

And a lot of internet feminists will jump to conclusions for someone's careless choice of words.

Misogynistic slurs =/= "careless choice of words." Ditto that, using misogynistic words and phrases like "bitch"? Not a "careless choice of words," however the person intended it -- it's still misogynistic language and should be called out. (P.S. You used "bitch" several times in your comments here after being told why it's offensive. Please stop.) Please, again, stop trivializing the experiences and feelings of feminists who object to sexist language by calling them/us "internet feminists" and referring to their valid criticisms as "jumping to conclusions."

I'm really getting sick of fingers being pointed by all too many people for something as innocent as expressing a favoritism to male characters or thinking that a female character is boring.

In some cases this may be valid -- I've seen people called misogynists simply for disliking a given female character, and that's not okay. However, I see no reason why we shouldn't have a discussion about why people tend to prefer male characters over female characters, or why people would find a female character "boring" when, if she were male, they would be huge fans. And sometimes, people really do just have stupid, sexist reasons for disliking female characters. It's really not all in our heads.

I'm sorry I pulled that card, and I'm sorry I did not choose my words more carefully.

Thank you for your apology.

But as much as these words have been abused and misused, it would be really refreshing if people could find alternate ways of expressing the same views because, as I said, it feels like a stale meme after all the times it's been thrown around improperly.

I... don't see why they should be obligated to. If those words fit the bill, then they fit the bill.

Your responses here have trivialized misogyny and have equated it to the negative treatment of men in a way that is really, seriously gross and sexist. I would ask that you please, please do some reading, especially of feminist literature, so that you can become better-educated on this issue. I'm serious here -- your responses have been so utterly, mind-bogglingly trivializing and full of "but what about the men" and criticizing and invalidating feminists and so on that it honestly leaves me a little worried because I just can't imagine someone honestly being so ignorant about misogyny and feminism as to say some of these things and make some of the comparisons you're making here. Please read some books. And please never, ever again go into a discussion about misogyny saying that women haven't always been oppressed because some female animals are stronger than the males. That is one of the most disgusting things I've seen recently on the internet, and I practically live here. Seriously.

actually I thought black men got the right to vote before any women did (correct me if I'm wrong please)

this comment has no relevance except being OCD about US history

You're right, actually -- my Google-fu says black men got the right to vote in 1870. It took 50 more years for women to get the same.

I apologize for the mistake, I should have been more judicious in my research.

And while misandry is mostly a non-issue (though again, I feel that it does exist, though it is unquestionably barely a fraction of the problem that misogyny is), treating men like dirt just because there's no history to amplify the effect will, in fact, be the foundation that it currently lacks in being an act of sexism, by your definition.

If you are seriously implying that what you even admit is an insignificant (in my opinion, nonexistent) amount of "misandry" will lead to men being treated like women have historically, then you're just a raving idiot. Because seriously, men are never going to be treated like women are. There is no cultural, societal or historical basis for it. It's bullshit. Any and all "sexism against men" in our modern society is simply a reflection of sexism against women -- that is, men in nursing are denigrated not because they're men, but because they're taking a job traditionally taken by women -- meaning, keep up!, that they're being "like a woman," which is what they're denigrated for. And on and on.

If by "misandry" you mean "individual women saying they hate men" or something, you should really consider that a lot of women have really good reasons to hate and/or distrust men. Women who have been raped, stalked, or otherwise hurt or harassed by men often feel that way. And that is PERFECTLY VALID, especially considering rape culture, "dudebro" culture, and so on that condone and encourage that kind of behavior in men.

How about when people get up and point out when someone's behavior is excessive and hurtful? Should it necessarily matter that someone is a feminist if their words are hurtful? Should it matter if the person being insulted is male?

They should say it that way, then. They should say it without using sexist slurs. Imagine that -- a man telling a woman they're being hurtful without resorting to calling her a "bitch" or a "feminazi" or a "man-hater"! Or even without calling her "ugly"! I know, it's hard to believe; so many men are so quick to jump on the stereotype train and think of anyone who disagrees with them as "evil bitch feminazis."

And really, it depends on what you mean about "hurtful words." If you mean "feminists calling out douchebag misogynists," then I don't consider those words hurtful. I consider those words necessary. If you mean "they dared to insult him after he pulled out misogynistic slurs and degrading words/phrases towards women," then you're barking up the wrong fucking tree, cos after someone proves themselves a misogynistic jackass, I find absolutely no reason to be polite or tactful with them. If you hurl misogynistic slurs at me, I no longer have any requirement to "play nice" and refrain from insulting you.

(As an aside, gotta love the double standard here that it's totally okay for the man in this discussion to throw around sexist language, calling people "bitches" and "feminazis" and "ugly" and all kinds of other things, but the women in this discussion, according to you, are being "excessive and hurtful" when they respond to him and call him on being a misogynistic asshole. More practical examples of sexism, right here, in the expectation that no matter what a man says, women should always be polite and demure and "nice." Gag.)

But it does bother me when some people - not you, from my limited view here, but some people - use causes such as feminism to act however they want and disregard the consequences because their demographic has been mistreated in the past.

Please, point me to an example of this in this discussion, because I haven't seen any of that. I've seen people getting rightfully enraged by a sexist asshole who continued being a sexist asshole and insulting and throwing slurs at women throughout the conversation, and responding with that rage. None of them were "using feminism as an excuse." I don't know what the fuck you're even talking about. I have tried to be polite here, but this is just bullshit. This is just you talking about something that did not happen, making shit up, to discredit the valid feelings and opinions of the feminists in this thread who spoke against davidshephard.

It bothers me when the name of equality is used to torment and attack perfectly nice people

Someone who uses misogynistic language and slurs against actual women is not in any case ever a "perfectly nice person". That's bullshit. Seriously, you're making this guy out to be a fucking saint -- is it that hard to say "the feminists were right, he was being sexist and an asshole"? I mean, are you that invested in discrediting feminists and women in favor of a man who called women "bitches," attempted to discredit their valid feelings and responses by playing it off as their just being "fat, ugly feminazis" and thus bitter, and compared women who are for equal rights to motherfucking Nazis? Because this is all bullshit. NO ONE HERE has attacked "perfectly nice people" just because they're male. NO ONE HERE has kept anyone from defending their words and actions. You're seriously not even in the realm of reality anymore with this comment. The ONLY person who kept davidshephard from defending his own (bigoted, ugly, gross) remarks was himself, by deleting his account in a raging fit of butthurt.

It also bothers me that these conversations cannot, physically CANNOT, take place without the words "privilege" and "ignorance" showing up.

NO SHIT, SHERLOCK. Seriously, you can't have these kinds of conversations without these words coming up because THESE WORDS ARE IMPORTANT TO THESE KINDS OF CONVERSATIONS. You can't discuss sexism without acknowledging and dealing with the privilege men have over women in society. And you sure as fuck can't educate a single person without acknowledging and dealing with said person's ignorance. And a lot of people -- yourself included, as I said above -- have been very, very ignorant in this thread. It's really gross. And people should be called on that ignorance. People should also be called on their privilege when they're flaunting it or trying to pretend it doesn't exist. It's not just bullshit and they're not just meaningless words -- these are important concepts. Important words.

(Oh my god I just exceeded the max character limit twice. I JUST HAVE A LOT OF FEELINGS. And I think I'm out of Hawkeye icons, so have some Pepper. Moar badass women for all.)

this is a very good post and you should feel good about it

except

i think it's fair to say it's utterly wasted on mondaisenshi. they are very set on remaining completely ignorant about everything and just blocking everything out so they can whine more about how men are being oppressed by feminists.

sad but true.

Thank you! ♥

I do wonder if it's a wasted effort, but I figure it's better to try, even if it doesn't get through, than to just let ignorance go unchecked... you know?

(I think sometimes that I should go into teaching, but I just don't have the patience in person, lol.)

aww you are so much more patient than i am though. i just rage so much at assholes like this.

and you're right, it's probably better to try. it's just so annoying when you go to the effort of writing in detail about something and they just respond with the same old "but... what about the poor men" like they didn't even read a single word.

Thanks <3 I really try my best, but sometimes I do lose my temper. It's really, really hard. So so so many times I just want to idk, throw something or strangle a plushy or something. I usually vent to my bff and then sit down and try to compose a coherent reply... which doesn't always work ;P

Yeah, I know what you mean :\ and it's totally happening here. But I just can never give up. idk I'm stupidly tenacious like that, lol.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #1755 ]

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