[ SECRET POST #1757 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1757 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 119 secrets from Secret Submission Post #.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[stella-down.livejournal.com]

former Axis countries tend to have different opinions on former Axis countries. Japanese nationalism was in some ways even nastier than the Germans'. you should see their textbooks. I doubt they think of it as transgressive.

[ncc-gqmf.livejournal.com]

That's... not really how it works, actually. Germany is crazy hardcore now about stomping down on any signs of nationalistic fuckwittery. Japan sucks in comparison, but they teach their kids to be ignorant, not racist fascists.

[stella-down.livejournal.com]

there really should have been a paragraph break in my comment. I didn't mean to imply that Japan was encouraging those nationalistic attitudes in their textbooks, just that they don't frame their involvement in WWII as a travesty in the same way that Europe and the US do to the extent of banning military/nationalist imagery or references. AFAIK it's glossed over or significantly recontextualized. it's definitely not taboo.

I know you live in Japan, so if I'm totally out of date with this stuff, please set me straight. no offense meant.

[ncc-gqmf.livejournal.com]

Well, you said "former Axis countries have different opinions on former Axis countries," implying that the ex-Axis is all secretly "yeah Nazis ruled" or something, whereas Germany is more intense than anyone about cracking down on that stuff.

You're right that it's glossed over here, as far as I'm aware. I don't sit in on the history classes or anything but my impression of how we teach it is basically: "Some bad things happened! THEN THE BOMB." Which isn't the same as teaching them that Japanese nationalism/fascism/Nazism was a good thing. They're taught that Violence is Bad and Crazy Violent Nationalism is Bad... they just don't tend to understand what their country did to earn that lesson.

[(Anonymous)]

That's ignoring Germany's reasons for the "Gegen Nazis" movement. Germany was humiliated after WWII, completely humiliated, and forced to pay reparations for what they had done. Germany's horror and aversions to anything pertaining to the Third Reich is instilled because the world demanded that the Germans never forget. I'm personally furious at the sheer racism and stereotyping against modern Germans for what a political party did. Yes, Germany stomps down on nationalism, but it's not just Nazism. It's all aspects of German society.

Nazi fetishism is abhorred in many parts of Europe because the Europeans were affected by the machinations of the Third Reich. Americans remember because of the prominence of Jews in that country and "Never Forget", as well as seeing firsthand what the Nazis had done when they liberated of several concentration camps.

Japan never had that. The Japanese atrocities were largely forgotten by the Western world after the Tokyo Trials on the world scale. The Germans were allies of the Japanese, even though they considered the Japanese a lesser people. They were friends to the Japanese and there is still a German expat community in Japan. The Japanese never experienced Germany the way America and Europe did. I think if the roles were switched and Japanese WWII uniforms showed up in German art, there wouldn't be this huge backlash because the Germans never experienced that side of the Japanese as "bad".

[scentbombed]

I don't know why you're picking a fight with me, since I'm pretty clearly on modern Germany's side, here. I'm also not sure how I'm ignoring... anything, by saying that Germany is very intense about cracking down on nationalism.

Japan is ignorant of their own involvement in World War II. They're ignorant of who their allies were and what they did; they're ignorant of what they, themselves, did. Like I said, it's very "oh, SOMETHING BAD."

[mekkio.livejournal.com]

Americans remember because of the prominence of Jews in that country and "Never Forget", as well as seeing firsthand what the Nazis had done when they liberated of several concentration camps.

Again, I hate this excuse. Because it doesn't hold up water as to why the Japanese can get away with fetishing Nazis. Just because your country wasn't involved in a tragedy doesn't mean you get to turn that tragedy or the people who commit it into a fetish. Americans were not part of the genocides that went on in Sudan, Cambodia and the massacres in Haiti under Papa Doc's regime. But Americans know about them and would never glamorize it.

People who are defending the fetishing of the Nazis are willfully saying that ignorance is fine. It's not.

[(Anonymous)]

IDK, Japan is pretty adamant about pretending a lot of shit it did during WWII Didn't Happen. Considering how annoyed China and Korea are, I'm not surprised at this treatment of Nazi Germany. Unlike the way Germany is now.

So if your point is that Japan sucks at this across the board and it's a symptom of that, I might be inclined to agree.

[stella-down.livejournal.com]

that's pretty much it, yeah.

[mekkio.livejournal.com]

Japan is pretty adamant about pretending a lot of shit it did during WWII Didn't Happen.

No effin' kidding. Even know, despite the saved photographs and records they will still say that the Nanking Massacre wasn't that bad.

[(Anonymous)]

Also, comfort women.

[(Anonymous)]

Different anon, in all fairness- and I have looked into this, the fact that the Nanking Massacre did happen is pretty unquestionable. The problem is, a lot of those saved photographs and records are actually kind of in question. For instance, the whole 100 people contest thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contest_to_kill_100_people_using_a_sword) has been in question for a while, and if you read over the things that Japanese historians have written about the time period, you'll notice that what they do isn't so much to say it wasn't 'that bad' as much as it is to say 'it happened but it was just one of many other events, and other people are blowing up the scale of it for the sake of propaganda'.

Are they downplaying what happened to a somewhat absurd degree? Very probably. Are other countries likely exaggerating the scale? Also highly likely! The thing is, if what they were doing were as simple as saying 'NOTHING MUCH HAPPENED' in the face of all conceivable facts, then yeah, it'd be easy to make an argument against them. Unfortunately what they do instead is- like what I said, go around the edge of the issue and focus on the fact that it is pretty much impossible to determine the exact degree of the massacre, and then imply that this means that it wasn't the incident that other countries and groups of people make it out to be.

It's actually a fascinating topic of study, how different groups of people see the same historical event. Also, clarification, I do personally disagree with the manner in which they present their arguments, but I will say that the exact scale of the Massacre isn't that simple to define, and even now a lot of academics are still splitting hairs over it.