[ SECRET POST #1773 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1773 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 055 secrets from Secret Submission Post #253.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[forthefluff.livejournal.com]

I get what you're saying, but it's irritating that that's basically the standard way "uke"-type characters behave. Some gay men are like that, sure, but they don't all fit into neat little boxes. It's particularly annoying when slash fanfic even goes out of its way to make characters OOC so they can fit the stereotypes.

But yeah, effeminate men can still be "real men", but not all of the bottoms HAVE to act that way. More variety in general would be nice. (...And stronger characterization in general.)

[clawdine]

This exactly!

[(Anonymous)]

I always wondered about the whole yaoi thing. I always felt like it wasn't about mangakas trying to write about gay men, idk like some kind of excuse to write two guys together while feminizing one of them so that the women who read it feel like they can relate. It's just like bara which is not really better but it's made so that it can relate to gay men (mostly)

I'm confusing myself LOL

[childings.livejournal.com]

I don't get this. If I wanted to project myself into the situation, I would read het and imagine myself as the woman. I don't get grossed out by lady parts though, unlike some cisfemale heterosexuals I know, maybe that's the problem.

Though femme guys are not my thing, some people out there are into them. I do think the whole GIRLY SISSY UKE + ANGULAR SINISTER SEME pairing is old and boring as shit though. This is why I tend to avoid a lot of canon yaoi and stick with the fandom slash for the most part. I just wish I could say this without being called a homophobe by annoying yaoi fangirls (if I hated gay men I wouldn't have lived with them for two years)

[(Anonymous)]

Meh. The whole thing is that I don't want to project myself into the situation- that's why I like slash. That, and I just can't fap to het or femslash. Never have been able to, and I don't really know why.

[childings.livejournal.com]

Well, that was part of what I was trying to say, but I guess I didn't word it clearly enough. I don't think that most women who read BL read it to project at all, so that doesn't exactly explain the pervasiveness of the femme uke in yaoi

[(Anonymous)]

Yaoi is written by straight women for straight women, not gay men (that's bara). It always has been. That's not say that gay men or lesbian women can't enjoy it or be pissed off about it but they're not the designated audience for it. It really pisses me off when people expect it to reflect real life gay relationships in Japan or the USA. It's not supposed to. It's a fantasy of women written by women, not a reflection of reality.

It's a way to explore and possibly subvert women's roles in Japan. It's a way for them to explore their sexuality in a safe, somewhat distanced manner as even though the uke behaves like a girl, he has male parts and provides that necessary mental distance for women who require it. It's a stress relief valve.

I'm also tired of seeing people complain about the uke's sexual passivity. Guess what? It's a reflection of women having sex in Japan. The woman is supposed to lie there and let her partner do all the work. Want to learn more: go here http://www.reddit.com/r/sex/comments/77uoy/sex_and_flirting_in_japan/
and http://www.reddit.com/r/sex/comments/77uoy/sex_and_flirting_in_japan/c05wtg8

It explains it pretty well, so I'm not going to re-iterate it here.

[(Anonymous)]

That actually makes sense

[forthefluff.livejournal.com]

I know where it comes from in the culture. I know it's meant to be for straight women in Japan. but it doesn't mean that, as a straight woman not from that culture, I should enjoy the objectifying of men, or all the characters falling into neat little stereotypes without any decent development. Besides, you could argue away any bad stereotypes as being "just a part of the culture!" it doesn't mean it's good.

[(Anonymous)]

this so hard

[(Anonymous)]

That doesn't mean we can't complain about it.

[mistaria.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the links -- wow that is super enlightening!

[(Anonymous)]

This.

Not to mention, it's painfully boring reading the same sorts of yaoi stories/fic over and over again. Is a character big, manly and strong? He's the seme! Is a character weak, feminine and shy? He's the uke! Now insert Seme's tab A into Uke's slot B. Congrats, you just made yaoi fanfic!

Why aren't more authors interested in exploring relationship/character dynamics, or exploring the different possibilities these characters might have in the bedroom. Just because a man is big, manly and strong in public, doesn't mean he wants to be big, manly and strong in the bedroom. It's fun writing diffferent sex scenarios for characters. Sticking to boring stereotypes is...boring.

[forthefluff.livejournal.com]

Why aren't more authors interested in exploring relationship/character dynamics, or exploring the different possibilities these characters might have in the bedroom.

Because that takes more work.

It could have to do with people finding comfort in patterns they know, or something.

[zombieroadtrip.livejournal.com]

This!

[smittenlotus.livejournal.com]

Very much this.

[malik-chan.livejournal.com]

But yaoi isn't about gay men, it's about two men fucking. It originated in Japan and as some kind anon explained within this thread, it's a way for Japanese women to safely explore their sexuality from a safe distance. The uke is supposed to represent a woman.

[forthefluff.livejournal.com]

I know. But I still don't find that comfortable. For one thing, I wouldn't want to be the uke, I'd want to be the seme! (this has more to do with my background, and I know that's not how women in Japan are "supposed" to behave, etc. It's fine if people want to read it, but it doesn't make it any less boring or squicky or whatever for me, personally.)

[cherrycoloured.livejournal.com]

I still think that the uke could be a stand-in for woman without resorting to sexist stereotypes, though. There are some manga out there like that, with well-rounded feminine uke, and I think those really fulfill the self-insert thing without being icky.

[green-glee.livejournal.com]

Well the uke is a piss-poor representation for women then, because as we all might have noticed at one point or the other women have different personalities as well?