[ SECRET POST #1773 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1773 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 055 secrets from Secret Submission Post #253.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom.livejournal.com]

15. http://i.imgur.com/ITyMg.jpg

[(Anonymous)]

Wait that's a dude?

[forthefluff.livejournal.com]

I get what you're saying, but it's irritating that that's basically the standard way "uke"-type characters behave. Some gay men are like that, sure, but they don't all fit into neat little boxes. It's particularly annoying when slash fanfic even goes out of its way to make characters OOC so they can fit the stereotypes.

But yeah, effeminate men can still be "real men", but not all of the bottoms HAVE to act that way. More variety in general would be nice. (...And stronger characterization in general.)

[(Anonymous)]

I think it's more an objection to making a gay couple seem as "straight" as possible than it is "ew girls!"

[mondaisenshi.livejournal.com]

I don't appreciate it when people imply that being girly or effeminate is wrong for men. But I also see how it could bother people if they treat all gay characters this way, if only because gay does not automatically mean girly... It really depends on exactly what people are complaining about.

[justaminuet.livejournal.com]

I think my issue with it stems from the feeling that some BL writers make their "uke" so effeminate (like in the picture they used), it almost feels like they want that character to be female in every way but the correct body parts. Like the writer is uncomfortable with writing/drawing two characters that are clearly male together, and then I feel uncomfortable because of that.

[citrusy-fun.livejournal.com]

I always considered manga like this, where the 'uke' character is extremely effeminate to the point that most people walking by would see the cover and see them as a girl, to be rather homophobic, and a negative stereotype.

My tastes greatly lean towards more masculine men in manga (Naono Bohra is my favorite manga-ka for BL). So when I see pictures like this, I immediately feel rather strange, as if, some people can't consider two masculine men being in a relationship together... that instead one MUST be effeminate for the relationship to not only work, but be worth reading about.

[cherrycoloured.livejournal.com]

If you mean simply effeminate, I agree, but if you mean uke, then no. Uke isn't simply feminine, it's about taking really misogynistic stereotypes and placing them on a man. I love BL with feminine guys, especially when they are on bottom, as long as the character is their own person, not some creepily co-dependent and weak stereotype presented as the ideal partner. I think that latter type is what most people have an issue with.

[megalomaniageek.livejournal.com]

I completely agree. There are some people I've seen (mostly in this thread) who have an issue with stereotypical or heteronormative portrayals of gay men in yaoi and that's fine, but far more of the complaints about "girly men" in yaoi boils down to gender essentialism and calling obnoxious OoC characters "girly" because the obnoxious behavior coincides with stereotypes about women. Part of what really bothers me is that a lot of male characters I like are actually kinda feminine in canon, but not in an uke-stereotype way, and their being warped to fit the uke-stereotype is not so much feminization as shitty writing.

I don't ever mind somebody saying "(this thing) is out of character for ____." What I do mind is "(this thing) is a thing women do but _____ is a man so he would never do that." You can cut out the middle man (or the middle woman, as it were) and just explain why it doesn't fit the character, instead of why it doesn't fit the box that the character is inside.

[(Anonymous)]

I think the problem is more that the source material itself is kinda sexist. In RL, sure, I agree that there's not only one way to be a man, and that girly should not be an insult. But tired character clichés are still tired character clichés. I think moste people would just love more variety.

[oflittlebrain.livejournal.com]

idk i'm just really not attracted to very femme guys, so if a guy in yaoi is actually indistinguishable from a female character (like in OP's pic) i probably won't want to read it. OP's pic actually interested me when I thought it was a shojo manga, but when I read yaoi there are very specific things that i'm looking for, and androgynous ukes just aren't my thing.

[velvet-mace.livejournal.com]

When they become like that character, I start seeing them as transwomen and get annoyed that isn't acknowledged.

[miezen.livejournal.com]

It's a fine line to walk. I agree that the way some people voice it is pretty gross, but at the same time, the reasons for the "uke" archetype are preeeeetty problematic, too. It's a matter of that whole "so which of you is the woman?" sort of attitude towards gay couples, for one thing. The idea is that a relationship requires someone to fulfill the traditional "man" role and someone to be the traditional "woman". If they're both dudes, there's no actual woman, so clearly that means that the one who takes it up the ass must display these characteristics that are associated with femininity so the relationship has a "man" (seme) and a "woman" (uke). The problem isn't that men can't ever display these sorts of personality traits (or have less "masculine" body types, for that matter), that's not why most people complain. It's more because these traits are associated with women, so they're given to the "uke" to make him fulfill the "female" gender role. Which is both sexist and a very poor representation of homosexual males.

Though I agree that the arguments presented can get to be rather iffy in how they're worded in this regard.

[(Anonymous)]

What I hate is that a lot of the defenses for this attitude that you can see right in this thread are never leveled at western slash, even though it does the exact same thing with startling frequency. But whenever people want to complain about offensive gender stereotypes in gay porn they turn to yaoi. Slash does the exact same thing and never gets called out on it the way yaoi does, not to mention a lot of the people who complain about yaoi have only read or seen one or two things and don't actually know anything about the genre. There's a huge double standard here.

[raichu100.livejournal.com]

IA, but why is this a secret, exactly?

The number of comments this has generated is interesting. *goes to read them*

[twenty-rooks.livejournal.com]

I agree. It's like people really do believe that some traits are gender specific. I hate that sort of bullshit.

It's also weird how many people (even in this thread!) seem to think that this is a) the only genre in BL/yaoi and b) that BL/yaoi where the characters are both more masculine don't have a seme and an uke. I mean, there are sometimes degrees of submissive behaviour attached to it, but not always, and it's essentially only a matter of position!

That said, I agree that the opinion that one half of the couple must always be passive can be problematic (depending on how it's said, the characters themselves, and so on) but it's not as if BL manga in general actually says that this is how it must be, as far as I've seen?

Also, people seem to confuse/conflate original BL with fanfic/doujinshi.

[fencer-x.livejournal.com]

Aren't you kind of...going against your own argument though? No one would have nearly as much a problem with "girly ukes" if there were more variety and if it better represented the spectrum of what homosexual relationships can look like (granted, yaoi wasn't developed as a genre for Western audiences, and that's a whole nother issue altogether).

On that note, I really wish I could find more BL with active switching between the partners. The closest I've found is an agreement between two characters to switch next time (with both being excited at the idea--so it wasn't just some 'fair's fair' deal), but it's a one-shot novel so far.

[(Anonymous)]

Yaoi is written by straight women for straight women, not gay men (that's bara). It always has been. That's not say that gay men or lesbian women can't enjoy it or be pissed off about it but they're not the designated audience for it. It really pisses me off when people expect it to reflect real life gay relationships in Japan or the USA. It's not supposed to. It's a fantasy of women written by women, not a reflection of reality.

I'm also tired of seeing people complain about the uke's sexual passivity. Guess what? It's a reflection of women having sex in Japan. The woman is supposed to lie there and let her partner do all the work. Want to learn more: go here http://www.reddit.com/r/sex/comments/77uoy/sex_and_flirting_in_japan/
and http://www.reddit.com/r/sex/comments/77uoy/sex_and_flirting_in_japan/c05wtg8

It explains it pretty well, so I'm not going to re-iterate it here.

Is that Harem de Hitori?

[(Anonymous)]

NGL I enjoyed it. Not the best but the art was stylish, very fairy-tale like. And feminine or not, Canary was hardcore.

Anyways, secret time! It bothers me, too. Especially when it's found out that people aren't complaining about the "girliness" per se, but the passivity and general spinelessness of the stereotypical uke. Seeing those traits being mixed up with "girliness" makes me sad.

Honestly the problem I have with BL is the same problem I have with every kind of story: Sturgeon's Law. I just want thought-out, well-written, likable characters. A wider spectrum of characters would be nice, but the lack seems to stem more from uninspired writing than anything else.

There's plenty of good BL that doesn't fit the "big-strong-domineering seme/small-weak-passive uke" mold. It's just (a lot, sometimes) harder to find.

Reading some Yamashita Tomoko right now, try her out if you don't want femme guys or shoujotastic atmosphere.

[(Anonymous)]

Didn't know anyone read Lily Hoshino's stuff... The majority of her stuff does that extreme "uke" stuff.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

It's not fair to level this criticism entirely at yaoi/BL, though, when slash is guilty of it a lot of the time. And if you look you'll find Japanese fandoms that don't do it (which I seek out pretty much exclusively these days if I'm interested in reading BL).

Also, the angular xbox huge rapist seme trope is just as obnoxiously horrible as the uke tends to be.

[twyla-hime.livejournal.com]

Agreed, OP. So much agreement here!

This attitude from people was driving me up the wall. I wish people could just state it more honestly and politely, like: "I wish for more variety in yaoi character types." or "I'm just not attracted to feminine men." Please don't bring any "real man" bullshit into it. And don't be derisive towards fans of stereotypical uke or bishounen.

There's not one right way to be a man.

[vickyblueeyez.livejournal.com]

deja vu. I've seen this before.....

oh, and here it is http://yaoiconfessions.tumblr.com/post/12060379667

[(Anonymous)]

Oh please, i like men and i want my men manly. If that's sexist to you, fine, i don't care.

[teira-chan.livejournal.com]

IA, but I'm mostly posting this to love on you for using a Lily Hoshino picture. ;; She's my favorite mangaka alkdjsalda.

...sorry all. I'm the worst kind of person aren't I?