[ SECRET POST #1773 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1773 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 055 secrets from Secret Submission Post #253.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[citrusy-fun.livejournal.com]

I always considered manga like this, where the 'uke' character is extremely effeminate to the point that most people walking by would see the cover and see them as a girl, to be rather homophobic, and a negative stereotype.

My tastes greatly lean towards more masculine men in manga (Naono Bohra is my favorite manga-ka for BL). So when I see pictures like this, I immediately feel rather strange, as if, some people can't consider two masculine men being in a relationship together... that instead one MUST be effeminate for the relationship to not only work, but be worth reading about.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree with that. I like masculine male characters most of the time and I don't really read BL. (Though maybe I'll check out Naono Bohra.)

But I have seen people rant on this subject (though more about fanfic than manga) and make it sound like girly guys are icky, and sometimes like girls are pretty bad too.

I mean, eventually I heard "If I wanted to read about girls I'd read het," (said as if that would be a disaster) one too many times.

So I kind of see what the OP is getting at -- BL manga certainly has issues (hurr...) but not because girly guys are gross.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't see why that quote is bad? I thought it's pretty obvious if you wanted to read about women you'd read het or femslash. What kind of tard reads yaoi for women (well..)

[(Anonymous)]

sa

I get that people read yaoi to read about men, and that's more than fine. And put the way citrusy_fun puts it, that makes perfect sense. Like I said, I enjoy masculine male characters too.

But after a while it started to sound like "girly guys are too much like women and who wants anything to do with women." And it's offensive to women and to men who aren't masculine.

I could have picked a much better quote to illustrate that attitude though, so... sorry about that.

[(Anonymous)]

Nah makes sense now and I see what you mean

[childings.livejournal.com]

I'm guess anon is trying to say that just because a man is really femme, it doesn't make them any less of a man, which is true.

[childings.livejournal.com]

I don't think girly guys are gross but there is a point where a man can be so femme that I don't find them sexually attractive anymore. Is that a crime?

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

I don't think it's a crime to not find anybody sexually attractive and I generally prefer masculine male characters myself. It's just that eventually some of the rhetoric sounds really dismissive of men who aren't masculine and of women. "They're real men and they don't act like girls" kind of thing.

I picked a lousy quote to illustrate that idea in my first comment though, so... sorry.

[childings.livejournal.com]

Oh okay. I get the point you're trying to make now and I agree

I also agree with another poster in this thread (trying to find out who specifically but livejournal is being a piece of shit right now) who said that femme male characters in yaoi are fine as long as they don't basically act like misogynistic stereotypes of women, and have their own personality outside of a relationship. Personally, I always wondered why we couldn't see more femme men in BL manga who had strong personalities and didn't fall into the whole tired "uke" stereotype (but again, this is why I tend to stick to fandom slash and fandoms that have loads of subtext to explore, rather than canon BL)

[(Anonymous)]

Not to say that your concerns aren't valid about the homophobia, etc., possibly inherent in BL manga where the 'uke' is super-effeminate to the point of looking like a woman, but honestly, I'm less bothered by that than I am by the negative stereotypes of male and female gender roles being applied to either partner, i.e. the always physically strong and emotionally-aloof-at-best-total-sociopath-at-worst 'seme' and the always weak and dainty cries-at-the-drop-of-a-hat 'uke'.

(And although this is slightly off-topic, I must applaud your taste in BL manga-ka. Naono Bohra is definitely one of the best.)

[twenty-rooks.livejournal.com]

I have a different problem; I like (among other types) androgynous and/or traditionally "effeminate" men, but would like to see pairings where both men are of this type. It's way too rare!

[(Anonymous)]

Then read bara not yaoi. Yaoi is written by straight women for straight women, not gay men (that's bara). It always has been. That's not say that gay men or lesbian women can't enjoy it or be pissed off about it but they're not the designated audience for it. It really pisses me off when people expect it to reflect real life gay relationships in Japan or the USA. It's not supposed to. It's a fantasy of women written by women, not a reflection of reality.

It's a way to explore and possibly subvert women's roles in Japan. It's a way for them to explore their sexuality in a safe, somewhat distanced manner as even though the uke behaves like a girl, he has male parts and provides that necessary mental distance for women who require it. It's a stress relief valve.

I'm also tired of seeing people complain about the uke's sexual passivity. Guess what? It's a reflection of women having sex in Japan. The woman is supposed to lie there and let her partner do all the work. Want to learn more: go here http://www.reddit.com/r/sex/comments/77uoy/sex_and_flirting_in_japan/
and http://www.reddit.com/r/sex/comments/77uoy/sex_and_flirting_in_japan/c05wtg8

It explains it pretty well, so I'm not going to re-iterate it here.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you for the link. An eye opener.

[blackjackrocket.livejournal.com]

You keep reposting those exact same lines. Those same lines that sort of tell any nonstraight women or nonwomen that they don't write yaoi and never have. That they have to only be the observers to it. No, just...stop.

[(Anonymous)]

I was with you until you said Naono Bohra.

[(Anonymous)]

THIS A THOUSAND TIMES