fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1788 ]

[ SECRET POST #1788 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1788 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Star Trek: The Next Generation]

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[Avril Lavigne; Miho Fukuhara; Supercell]

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06. [repeat]

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[Doctor Who]

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12. [repeat]

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[Assassin's Creed]

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[Puss In Boots]

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[Parenthood]

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[Supernatural]

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[Mortal Kombat]

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[Greek Myths (Hermes), Allstate (Mayhem)]

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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

22. [SPOILERS for something, OP did not specify]

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23. [SPOILERS for something, OP did not specify]

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24. [SPOILERS for modern warfare 3]

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25. [SPOILERS for Marble Hornets]

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26. [SPOILERS for Pandora Hearts]

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27. [SPOILERS for Dexter]

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28. [SPOILERS for Alien Nine Emulators ]

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29. [SPOILERS for Batman: Arkham City]

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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

30. [TRIGGER WARNING for pedophilia]

[Chrono Crusade]

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31. [TRIGGER WARNING for incest]

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32. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]

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33. [TRIGGER WARNING for eating disorders]

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34. [TRIGGER WARNING for abuse]

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35. [TRIGGER WARNING for eating disorders]

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[House]

36. [TRIGGER WARNING for depression/suicide]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #255.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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...I think that's the point people are making. Liking yaoi/slash is not inherently supporting gay rights.

Some people say that writing/reading slash and femslash fiction is objectifying and fetishizing gay and lesbian relationships and people and thus indicates that the people reading/writing these stories are bad people who don't treat gay, lesbian and bisexual people as real people.

and i think that is the stupidest idea ever tbh

actually, there's a lot of truth to it. if you ship two characters together just because they're male and hot then you treat them like objects. and singling them out above the "het ships" or whatever because they're all so cute does the same. there is such a thing as positive discrimination and many slash/yaoi fans don't realise that what they're doing is seperating gay people from actual, real life environments so that they can fantastise about them. you're putting them on some sort of pedestal and that is hurtful to them because they just want to be treated like normal people.

(that's not even the only problematic thing. don't even get me started on the rampant misogyny some slash&yaoi fans display. because het relationships aren't worth as much as gay relationships obviously!!!! and they would've gotten away with it if it wasn't for those meddling women! plus, many slash&yaoi fans seem to think gay = gay men. you don't want to know how many times i've encountered the attitude "lol gay guys are so hot ew lesbians get them away from me". but yes, that's a whole other rant.)

tl;dr: a lot of (not all) slash and yaoi fans are stupid and uneducated and more harmful than helpful to the lgbt community.

edit: i used you as the communal you here, not attacking you specifically haha

Edited 2011-11-25 22:35 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything wrong with being attracted specifically to M/M pairings just because they're hot. If it's bleeding into how one views real gay men, whether it's positive or negative discrimination, then they should re-evalute what they're doing, but as long as one can separate fantasy and reality, I think people should be allowed to get off on whatever they like.

*reevaluate

yes, of course. there definitely isn't something wrong with getting off on m/m pairings (or f/f pairings for that matter) in principle, i don't care what people fantasize about in their free time. the only problematic bit is that many can't seem to tell their wanking fantasies and actual, real life gay relationships apart and that is what bothers me so much about it.
i guess you can't really fault some of them for it since the stereotypes commonly depicted in yaoi and a lot of m/m fanfiction are only perpetuated by modern media but they definitely shouldn't be left thinking they're allies if they adhere to that kind of behaviour in real life, too.
sadly, they don't get called out on it often enough if they do step out of line.

you mean, like what a lot of het fans (and romance fans) do?

good try.
heterosexual people aren't shunned by society, so i frankly do not give a fuck if someone sexualizes them.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2011-11-26 22:17 (UTC) - Expand

You sound like you're in a shitty fand-

nvm

Actually, sometimes it's true.

Look, as a lesbian, I love me some slash, yuri, AND yaoi. For the record, half of the pairings I ship are het. It's all about love, though I admit when I want to read strict porn it's only girl-on-girl which gets me off. But there are alot of straight men out there who get a hard on at the sight of women making out. This objectifies us and treats us as an object for their pleasure Don't even get me started on Katy Perry, and how she flaunts her straight privilege to capitalize on the fethization of lesbianism. "Gay icon" my ass. I have also met girls (in real life) who are friends with my gay guy friends and either a) treat them like "gay best friends" to be collected like purses or b) get really weird around me when they find out I'm a lesbian (because I'm pretty girly and it's hard to tell.) Relax, ladies. Trust me. Nobody's interested. And just assuming I am is playing into homophobic stereotypes.

I could go on, and on, and on, but the point is: people don't have to be blatantly homophobic to see gay people as "lesser than" or "other than" themselves, even if they don't consciously realize that's what they are doing.

For the record, though, I haven't had a problem at all with straight slash fans being awesome allies. But I make a point to hang out in really cool comms, I can imagine the rest of the internet isn't so nice.

treat them like "gay best friends" to be collected like purses

FUCKING HATE THIS SO MUCH HNNNGGGGG
My littlest sister is like this with some of her friends and it pisses me off. Especially when she treats this one friend of hers like she's his mom or something. He'll come to visit her and leave the next day without saying goodbye and then she posts all this shit on facebook about how she can't find him and doesn't know where he is. Newsflash: HE HAS HIS OWN LIFE YOU DON'T NEED TO KNOW WHERE HE IS

I'm liking this comment :)

Slightly off-topic... I was never so aware about the "oh you're gay? Well, but don't think I will have sex with you" kind of reactions, until I came out as bi to my friends. Some girls even refuse to change in front of me now, even though when they thought I was still straight they had no qualms about showing me some flesh when we were shopping for clothes together.

Even one of my guy friends wanted to talk to me and made clear that he doesn't like to see me hugging his girlfriend anymore.

It hurt so much. Of course those few people are no longer my friends now.
I really don't get it and I'm serious about that: why is sexual innuendo with girls and boys okay as long as they think you're straight? The guys didn't suddenly tell me I should stay away from THEM. It was all about the girl, even though they perfectly knew what "bisexual" meant.

I seriously wonder where this prejudice comes from. I mean, I don't meet a person and tell them "well, I'm bi, that means I like men and women, but don't you think you have a chance with me! Please don't hug me or show any kind of affection, because I don't want to see your genitals, ok? Ok."

WTF

Hello! As a fellow (mostly~) lesbian I'd like to chime in and say that I don't think there's an inherent problem in guys getting off to girls together (just like there isn't when I do, or when slash fangirls get off to gay guys).

Oh, I don't have a problem with anybody's fantasies! It's just I meet guys in real life who ask me alot of degrading fantasies or personal questions, or men who like lesbian porn but don't think two men should be allowed to get married. I have a straight guy friend who is a huge ally, and gets off to the L Word. No problem: he always treats me with respect. It's when it gets degrading (as often it does) in the media, I have an issue.

Thanks for commenting so I could clarify :)

Yeah, I think for me, the big difference is in how they treat people and see gay people. I don't think there's anything wrong with thinking that two men or two women together is hot. It's just when that comes with degrading attitudes, or when someone judges gay people based on how much they fit the fantasy, that it gets to be a problem. If someone can relate to gay people as human beings and not fantasies or accessories, then it should be good.

I do get a little uncomfortable with slash in fandom sometimes because I do see some emphasis on being attracted to characters because they're gay or written as gay in fic, which weirds me out sometimes. But finding it attractive doesn't bother me.

a) treat them like "gay best friends" to be collected like purses

This sooooooo much. I have heard too many girls say "I really want a gay male best friend" in the same way one might say "I really want those cute new shoes." It's great that you have no problem with have a gay friend - truly it is! - but you can't collect "gay friends" the way you may collect fashion accessories.

Also, I get annoyed by the people who think that being a straight woman with a gay male BFF is going to make your life like [i]Will and Grace[/i]. It won't.

*gets off soapbox*

THIS SO MUCH. For some reason, I tend to get along with very campy, feminine gay men. I don't plan it that way. I don't try to collect them. I just tend to be nice to everybody, become friends with people I like, and spend alot of time volunteering with LGBTQ and feminist organizations. Because I'm really girly, people don't realize I'm a lesbian until I talk about it (and I talk about it ALOT, not gonna lie.) Until people find out, they're like "oh, you and your gay best friend..." or "You're like Will and Grace!" They have no clue what our relationship is like, and think they can guess what we're like from tv shows. And I don't like people treating my friends like commodities. I don't have the heart to tell him that, actually, my best friend and I are less likely to go shopping than sit around in his dorm watching anime, talking about politics and religion, and maybe playing a bit of Halo.

Totally off-topic, but ahh, I spazzed internally at your icon. <333 "Into the Woods" is a personal favorite play.

Oh, me too! Of course, pretty much everything by Sondheim is one of my favorites, but Into the Woods has a really special place in my heart.

But there are alot of straight men out there who get a hard on at the sight of women making out.

Are we talking in porn or just out on the street? Because I know some people have issues with men liking lesbians even in porn but I honestly do not see a problem with it. As long as they don't treat any lesbian they see as if they exist just for their gratification, why shouldn't they get off on watching lesbian sex?

(Now, if they're getting hard ons and harassing women out on the street, that's way over the line. But that really goes for anything, not just lesbians.)

Well, I guess alot of porn can be demeaning to women (straight or "lesbian", and I put "lesbian" in quotes because there is no way those long-fingernailed girls actually sleep with women.) As far as I'm concerned, people can watch whatever porn they want, even if I find some porn sexist. I'm not saying porn is bad. Some porn can be a good exploration of sex and sexuality. Feminist porn is the shit. But much of the porn industry runs on hetero-patriarchal norms and encourages an "othering" of female sexuality, exploiting it for men. Also, the fethization of female sexuality in alot of porn meant for straight men treats lesbianism as "unusual" or "exotic" thus exploiting the idea the homosexuality is 'shocking' or 'hot' or 'different' when, really, that kind of picture should not be concerned. If you ever watch lesbian porn meant for straight guys and lesbian porn meant for lesbians (or better, read studies on it) there is a huge difference in content.

Short answer: I'm not "talking about porn or just out on the street." I'm talking about the ideological constructs which influence people's actions, whether it's watching porn or actually leering at real life lesbians. After all, ideology influences action in both private and personal levels. If the ideology influencing a guy's love of lesbian porn is fundamentally pro-queer and/feminist, okay. If his ideology is primarily hetero-patriarchal, with objectification, not so okay. Objectification is never a good thing, and a guy who objectifies women in his mind is likely to at least say something incredibly offensive, even if he's not actively harrassing women.

I'll be honest, I've seen lesbian porn made for lesbians and porn made for straight guys. I far prefer the porn made for straight guys. (For reference, I'm a woman.)

Most guys interest in lesbian porn is driven by the fact that they think women are hot and two women are hotter. Is it objectifying? Yes, but to an extent all porn is objectifying. Most people do not watch porn thinking about the person in it, just about whether or not they look good naked. It's objectification but as long as it's not carried over to real life interactions, I don't really think it's a big deal.

...treat them like "gay best friends" to be collected like purses...

Disappointing Gay Best Friend is here to disappoint!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYLdM8wXkzM

This. It doesn't mean you CAN'T support gay rights, either. Just that the one doesn't necessarily lead to the other.

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