[ SECRET POST #1843 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1843 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 50 secrets from Secret Submission Post #263.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[hoggle2807.livejournal.com]

Yes, every show ever has guys that are friends. But that's just it. They're friends. They're buddies. They're pals. I'd make the argument that the number of shows that explore honest-to-god close friendships between two men is nearly as rare as shows with gay protagonists.

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

That's bullshit and I certainly hope you know it.

Off the top of my head: Psych, Criminal Minds, Being Human (presumably both versions, though I only have personal experience with the UK version), The West Wing, House MD... would you like me to go on? These are all shows with "honest to god close friendships between two men." I could probably name a dozen more given a little time.

Close friendships between two men are all over the frigging place in television. They're not rare, they're not unheard-of. Period.

[ncc-gqmf.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this is... untrue. Shows about close platonic male relationships have been around for ages. Why do you think slash fandom started with Star Trek? Why were Highlander, Starsky and Hutch, Man from UNCLE, and Due South so popular to slashers? Oh, right -- because they're all about men who are closer to each other than they are to women.

Besides which, these days, bromance is practically de rigeur for sitcoms. C.F. Community, Cougar Town (done by the same showrunner as Scrubs, the origin of "Guy Love"), How I Met Your Mother, Happy Endings... that show and the dramedy in my icon, Sirens, subvert it by having one member of the bromance actually be gay, but they're still platonic relationships. Also currently popular are dramas that explore familial or faux-familial bonds between men, like Supernatural and the marvelous Breaking Bad (where the two MCs form a surrogate father/son relationship).

[(Anonymous)]

But there's a difference between 'bromance' and a really well-written, complex relationship between two men, imo.

[ncc-gqmf.livejournal.com]

What is this difference when it comes to any of the shows I or the other commenter posted about?

[(Anonymous)]

Well, there's something deeper about the male relationships in things like Star Trek, Being Human, LotR and Sherlock. Bromances in sitcoms are a lot more light-hearted and the characters usually have a group of friends outside their relationship. Sherlock/John, Mitchell/George and Frodo/Sam however, only really have each other to depend on and go through so much together. You know what I mean?

I'm not saying male relationships aren't represented in the media, but there is a lack of truly powerful friendships of any kind.

[ncc-gqmf.livejournal.com]

Okay, first of all, you straight-up just mentioned four pieces of media that have, BY YOUR OWN DEFINITION, truly powerful friendships. Four! Right there. Four mainstream or relatively mainstream examples, compared to how many mainstream gay relationships?

Second, have you seen the sitcoms in question? They're light-hearted by the nature of the genre (like, obviously two dudes that are friends in the real world aren't going to share the same experiences as two dudes who CLIMB MOUNT DOOM TOGETHER), but Shawn/Gus and Troy/Abed, among others, are portrayed as far closer to each other than they are to anyone else. Troy and Abed even share a bedroom. And with Due South, the series literally ends with the two main dudes eschewing women and everything else in their lives and riding off into the sunrise together. I mean... seriously.

[(Anonymous)]

What? Where did I mention anything about gay relationships? All I did was say I don't think bromances should be bundled in with those particular friendships and explained why they were different.

I haven't seen Psych, but I've seen a lot of sitcoms with bromances including Scrubs and Community. Obviously Troy and Abed still have a special bond, but they're not in a position that requires them to be more than best buddies and they're not the central characters. Again, I never said these relationships aren't represented in the media, so I don't know why you're acting so hostile towards me.

[ncc-gqmf.livejournal.com]

Um, the entire thread has been about the dearth of gay relationships in media compared to the overwhelming number of stories about the close PLATONIC bond between PLATONIC men that could never be anything but PLATONIC.

Second, you're getting increasingly nitpicky and it's destroying your case. Basically, you mean you like Sherlock and John because it fits this particular paradigm of close male friendship that you enjoy. Except that even then, there are plenty of stories that have deep friendships between men, without women or where the friendship is more important than the relationship, where the two men are the central characters, where they work together, and where the men are over 30/"mature". I'm not kidding. Most of the Great Slash Canons from the last 40 years fit exactly that model. See again: Due South, Highlander, Starsky and Hutch, Man from UNCLE, the Sherlock movies and books, the Avengers, X-Men, and Justice League for comic books... I can go on.

I'm not being hostile, I'm being emphatic. You're making an argument that is A: totally without credibility and B: consistently used by opponents of gay main characters in media, despite being totally without credibility.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah fine, but in my comment I wasn't arguing about that. I just didn't agree with all the examples given. I know full well that gay relationships aren't properly represented and believe there should be more of them on television, so please don't imply I'm somehow against it.

I'm not getting nitpicky. I'm trying to make my point more clear. I realize these relationships have been explored in the past, but I was thinking in terms of recent films and TV shows and how the new Sherlock compares with them. I think it's one of the few shows out there at the moment which handles the platonic relationship between two characters (and I'm not only talking about men) really well. That's my opinion. I'm not stating it as a fact. I haven't seen every single series out there, so maybe I'm wrong and that's fine.

Your tone and the tone of others in this post comes across as hostile as it seems like anyone who expresses the opinion that Sherlock and John should stay friends is perceived as being homophobic. It's incredibly insulting and is frankly one of the things which puts me off the Sherlock fandom.

[ncc-gqmf.livejournal.com]

I'm not even in Sherlock fandom. I've never even seen the show. I looked at this thread because I agree with the sentiment that I'm increasingly sick of relationships like that on TV and in movies. In fact, knowing it would be like that is one of the main reasons I didn't watch Sherlock.

The more you clarify your point, the narrower and more pointless this becomes. "There aren't other stories that focus on deep male friendships." "Oh, there aren't other DRAMAS that focus on deep male friendships." "Oh, there aren't other dramas where the guys are OVER 30 that focus on deep male friendships." "Oh, there aren't other RECENT..." And so on. But actually, there are a lot of recent films and TV shows exactly like this. There just are. That's just a fact. There are no films or TV shows that have what I want to see, of any kind. So TBH, I find the whole debate pretty irksome.

[(Anonymous)]

If you haven't even seen the show, then yeah, this is completely pointless because you're not going to see where I'm coming from.

[ncc-gqmf.livejournal.com]

You haven't said anything that's made me think, "I would understand this better if I'd seen Sherlock." I've seen other Holmes adaptations. I've seen the other shows on my list. I don't feel that I'm missing anything, not watching yet another show about two guys who are SO IN LOVE~~~~ but not in a gay way.

[(Anonymous)]

A lot of what I've been saying has been based on an episode that just aired, so..

Maybe you wouldn't feel differently, but you are missing out on a great show. That's all I have to say.

[ncc-gqmf.livejournal.com]

Except I've heard about what happens in that episode, including the ~graveyard speech~ and whatnot. It's still the exact same "they're in love but not really" thing, and I've had my fill of those shows. IF they fulfilled the OP's request and changed it, I'd watch the hell out of it, but I'm bored with white boy UST slashbait.

[(Anonymous)]

Adding on to my previous comment, I should have mentioned 'maturity' in my original post. A lot of bromances on TV lack maturity. They're always about young men in their 20s or early 30s. That's part of why I think Sherlock and John's friendship is unique.