fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1901 ]

[ SECRET POST #1901 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1901 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 06 pages, 150 secrets from Secret Submission Post #272.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

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Fandom sure is a fickle bitch.

So, what made a whole bunch of people turn on Ten? They just saw Eleven and decided he was better or something? It all seems a bit random.

LOL IT SURE IS

You hear various reasons. Some people say they always hated him -- and you know, who knows, maybe they did IDK. Some people say they hated him because of JE but honestly I didn't see that much of it until well after JE so again IDK. Lots of people really hated Waters of Mars and End of Time because he was "whiny" and was not an adequately stoic hero for them. Some people just like Eleven better or say that Eleven made them ~realize how bad Ten was.

This is interesting because I'm not the biggest fan of Ten (he had his moments but he's not going to be making any top 5 Doctor's lists for me) but people changing their mind about him in reaction to JE seems bizarre. I liked him more for portions of that than I had for a long while.I don't think his character was all that different in his later episodes than it was in his earlier ones, to be honest. A little more manic and griefy perhaps (but only marginally).

Yeah honestly I mean, I love Ten, but I think he was very consistently characterized and developed and he had a very clear arc where nothing came out of nowhere, the seeds were always planted there. So people who loved him but then started hating him baffle me a bit, certainly more than the people who've always disliked him, because I don't really think he changed significantly. I mean, he developed, but he didn't become a radically different person. His flaws and his virtues were the same the whole way through.

Well, I'm personally a fan of all the NuWho doctors. But the mind-wiping of Donna is a pretty good reason not to like him, IMO. Although, for me, it is more that I'm annoyed at Moffatt for even writing that plot.

I'm a little fuzzy on that incident because I haven't rewatched it since it aired but I was under the impression that he didn't have much of a choice in that situation; wasn't her mind going to burn up (or whatever) if he didn't wipe it?

I mean, I'm not endorsing mind rape or anything but I do think this is more of a writer issue (like you say) than an in-story problem.

Nope, you aren't wrong. In-canon, he didn't have a choice. Which is why my issues are with Moffatt for writing it that way, not with Ten for doing what canon was saying he had to. Some fans, though, feel like when she said no that meant he should have left it and let her die. Which I don't agree with. But I can kind of understand that viewpoint since it would have been her choice.

I've never really thought about this issue before (because season four isn't my primary area of interest in the show) but I can totally see where those fans are coming from. I think overall it's probably better that he did perform the wipe but if she had been given the choice then at least we would have known what she preferred. It's a problematic storyline that Moffatt really should have thought about more before writing.

Edited 2012-03-18 03:07 (UTC)

Davies, not Moffat...

You are right. I got mixed up. It was Davies. Which is why I always want to tell people, when they complain about sexism from Moffatt, that Davies was just as bad. I think the fate of Donna was easily the most sexist thing in all of NuWho.

He was just a bad, yes, but that hardly excuses Moffat.

It doesn't help that Moffat is in another fandom I love, and he occasionally gets his sexist bullshit all over that, too. But then, I think there are other issues with his writing (caring about plot over character [to the point where characters act inconsistently even within his own writing based on what he wants the plot to do], thinking characters endlessly spouting catchphrases is clever, etc).

I think the fate of Donna was easily the most sexist thing in all of NuWho.

I think I know why, but could you elaborate? Maybe my reasons and your reasons are different.

Choice is important to me, and the fact that the story was written specifically so her choice was taken away from her and so that another character was forced to basically mind rape her is just really icky to me.

Ah.... yeah. I mean, under the circumstances, I don't blame the Doctor, but there was no reason that plot point needed to exist.

What bugged me: Rose had the whole Space-Time Continuum in her, and the The Doctor kissed her and had time to regenerate. Donna only has The Doctor's memories in her.. and he couldn't do something similar?

Exactly. I don't personally blame the doctor, but I firmly blame Davies for that plot even existing. It was disgusting and unnecessary. And you are right that Rose had even more in her and the Doctor only had to kiss her to fix it.

Yeah...
I think we've pretty much exhausted this bit of the thread. (-:

I don't know about this. The way I feel about it is, in-story the whole situation was sort of devastasting to me. But, looking at it from a plotline point of view, I think it was brilliant. (If that makes any sense - I think it was terrible depressing, but also a great idea storywise.)

The thing is, I don't think the Doctor really wanted to take that choice from her. But he sort of felt that he had to. I think after Davros reminded him of all the deaths he'd caused (remember the montage of deaths from all of NuWho?), the idea of another companion dying was just so unbearable for him that he felt he needed to do whatever he could to just not let her die, even if it meant doing something terrible to her. And I think that that choice really affected him. The rest of Ten's run, and all the terrible things that happened during it, seem to stem largely from the guilt that he felt over what he did to Donna. I sort of got the feeling that even up until his regeneration, he was still reeling from that choice. (I also kind of have a theory that Eleven still isn't over that guilt, either, but that's more of a fantheory than anything.)

I wish that there had been a more tangible consequence for what he'd done to Donna. (And am kind of sort of hoping maybe she'll come back one day and make him face up to it, though I'll admit it's unlikely.) But I think that even though what the Doctor did was A Bad Thing, I think that it was intended to be. That was part of the story, and sort of the catalyst for the downfall of 10, you know?

the idea of another companion dying

"Another" companion dying? None of the Doctor's companions have died in New Who.

And, no, sorry, I still think this was bullshit.

Edited 2012-03-18 19:32 (UTC)

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S6 & Eleven made me realize how freaking fantastic Ten was, tbh.

lmao

When I was in London last summer, the girl I was staying with's one roommate's boyfriend (yeah, follow that six degrees lol) mentioned Doctor Who to us and was like "I don't mind David Tennant but I hate Ten, Matt Smith is so much better" etc. And we all just kind of stared at him and then

goldy_dollar was like "yeah but I bet if Ten's best friend had her baby stolen he would give a shit" and the guy was like "well... ...... ....yeah."

I didn't watch DW for a couple of years because of what Ten did to Harriet Jones at the end of The Christmas Invasion. I got back into it when I was flipping channels and Donna happened. Then Journey's End happened and I was Over It again, until I was at a friend's house and we had an epic marathon from The Lazarus Project to ~~Lust~~ Last of the Time Lords and Martha being awesome.

I actually liked (in a "that was an awesome episode that I'm never going to watch again because it SCARED THE PANTS OFF ME" way) Waters of Mars and the Time Lord Victorious thing. The Doctor should be a little scary, you know?

I think what cinched it was that he reacted badly instead of stoically to his regeneration.

Of all the reasons to dislike Ten, this is a pretty lame one.

Honestly, I thought that was badly written and designed by Moffatt to say "Ten is the best doctor". Because none of the other Doctors reacted that way. He wasn't dying, he was just regenerating. And the ending where the Tardis exploded because of his regeneration was just so overdone.

Davies, not Moffat. There's PLENTY to hate about Moffat, let's not blame him for things he didn't do...
(-;

Edited 2012-03-18 03:14 (UTC)

It was almost as if the writers wanted to make Ten have a human reaction to regenerating; where regeneration = death. But, of course, that's not what it is and if anybody knows that it's the Doctor (whichever version we may be talking about).

Re: the Tardis exploding; this is especially silly considering some of the regenerations the show has portrayed in the past, Pertwee to Baker was almost peaceful.

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