[ SECRET POST #1986 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1986 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 119 secrets from Secret Submission Post #284.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0- not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 2 - going to have to be a little more subtle than this ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

Odin even admitted, I believe, that he did favor Thor before he fell into the Odin-sleep

Pretty sure all Odin says is "why do you twist my words?!" When Loki's frothing at the mouth and going "you wouldn't have a frost giant on the throne of Asgard gahhhhhh!" And then Odin swoons and it's nap-time. I think the "implying" is just "something that Loki said," and considering how many times Loki lies or twists truths I think it's fair to pretty much never take things he says at face value. He might believe them, sure, but believing something and having it be the truth are two very, VERY different things.

You know, while people put a whole lot of emphasis on the "I'M A FROST GIANT NOOO!" thing, I think that Odin going into the Odinsleep while Loki was yelling at him was really more of an impetus for Loki than the frost giant heritage thing. The frost giant thing gave him a target, but the Odinsleep gave him a motive. Considering that it was apparently possible for Odin to never come out of the Odinsleep, Loki basically saw Odin die in front of him, and it wouldn't have taken a lot of mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that, "I yelled at dad. Dad died. I killed dad." Which equals a whole lot of guilt, and coupled with the frost giant thing a real need to prove himself a "true" son.

That doesn't really have much to do with anything, I just thought it was kind of an interesting note about the character and people's interpretations of him. :)

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, and regards to the "joke that makes you feel bad thing," yeah, who hasn't, but that doesn't mean you've been abused. Being the expense of a joke (ONE joke) makes Loki more sympathetic, but when people jump to HE'S BEEN ABUSED AND EVERYONE HATES HIM...well, there's just no evidence of that.

And I also will argue with the "evidence he's been treated second best his whole life." I will say that there is evidence that Thor was more popular than Loki with the people...but there's honestly nothing you can do about that. It makes him a more sympathetic character (people love underdogs), but it isn't any kind of indication that he's been abused, and it also isn't any indication that Odin and Frigga treated him any less than they did Thor.

[elialshadowpine]

I think the difference is that some of us are extrapolating from what we saw in the film and assuming that the comments and stuff made are supposed to be representative of what regularly goes on. And yeah, being at the expense of jokes regularly does add up.

I think "abused and everyone hates him" is going pretty far, because it's definitely obvious that people do care about him, but small comments that can be read as critical (from Odin) and probably continuous jokes (the group) can add up. But part of this is that I do know people who had families that made jokes and slight comments favoring one kid, and they feel pretty much like their whole family hates them even though it's pretty obvious they don't -- they just do things differently and don't realize it's hurtful.

[(Anonymous)]

I think one of my biggest problems is people extrapolating that "one comment = OMG THIS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME! THEY HATE HIM!"

I think people just want to find reasons for how Loki is so put upon, and that's just a convenient moment to use (and it always somehow ends up disregarding how Volstagg and Fandral actually stand up for Loki).

And I never really got the "Odin is critical of Loki" thing. It seems way more obvious that Odin is actually more critical of Thor (considering the whole first half of the movie we see time after time of Odin correcting Thor, and calling him out). After all, Odin doesn't criticize Loki at all, outside of that one time he said Loki was twisting Odin's words when...well, that's exactly what he was doing.

I mean, I do think the joke makes Loki sympathetic (which is good because the movie would have been much less interesting is Loki wasn't at all sympathetic), I just don't think that it adds up to anything more than just a joke. If they wanted to show that Loki was put-upon and laughed at all the time, they would have. It wouldn't have been hard to do. But they didn't.

[elialshadowpine]

From a writing perspective, it doesn't make much sense to show something like that if it's not a normal event. Loki's facial expressions also indicated to me that this was something he was used to, but that could be me!

Where did Fandral and Volstagg stand up for him? Are you thinking of the scene when Loki is king, or?

I'd have to go look at Youtube clips for the direct quote, but there were a couple comments in the beginning of the movie that sounded slightly critical to me.

[(Anonymous)]

After Thor is banished, when the gang comes back to Asgard and Loki reveals that he was the one who sent for Odin. He stalks out of the room and Sif + W3 are left to discuss what happened. When Sif and Hogun start slinging around wild accusations, Volstagg points out that they should all be thanking Loki (for, you know, saving their lives). And later, Fandral is quick to say that, while Loki's always been a prankster, accusing him of treason is a pretty big leap.

Anyways, I took the silver-tongue comment as a pretty blatant exposition to let us know, "Hey! This guy right here! Yeah, he's a liar. :D" It was an easy way to give Loki a reputation without randomly being like, "and this fellow we all call Loki Silver-tongue! :D" Not exactly the smoothest writing, but eh, it gets the job done.

(Also, for Loki's look, I more interpreted it as being put off by Heimdall's "I'm not falling for that," attitude and Thor immediately butting in to be...well, his usual Thor self.)

As for the quotes, I'm interested to see what you're talking about, because for the whole first part of the movie Loki and Odin don't really interact. Loki pretty much hangs around Thor (to further manipulate him) and let's him do all the talking (because Thor is the master at saying dumb shit).

[demishock]

You know, while people put a whole lot of emphasis on the "I'M A FROST GIANT NOOO!" thing, I think that Odin going into the Odinsleep while Loki was yelling at him was really more of an impetus for Loki than the frost giant heritage thing. The frost giant thing gave him a target, but the Odinsleep gave him a motive. Considering that it was apparently possible for Odin to never come out of the Odinsleep, Loki basically saw Odin die in front of him, and it wouldn't have taken a lot of mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that, "I yelled at dad. Dad died. I killed dad." Which equals a whole lot of guilt, and coupled with the frost giant thing a real need to prove himself a "true" son.

Thank you for putting this WAY better than I ever could. When I first saw the movie, I actually thought that Loki's outburst WAS the cause of Odin's collapse - that he'd inadvertently unleashed his magic on Odin or something like that - and it made the scene really horrifying to me. But I think what you've said here hits the nail right on the head.

[(Anonymous)]

That's honestly one of my favorite parts of the movie, mainly because I think it highlights Odin and Loki's characters so well. Odin is trying so hard to communicate with Loki, and Loki just refuses to accept what Odin is saying. That Odin loves Loki like a son, no strings attached. And at that moment I think Odin really understands just how messed up Loki is, but he's falling into the Odinsleep and he can't do anything about it.

And Loki is just stuck there with that "what have I done?" look on his face. Ugh, SO TRAGIC. I love it!