fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1990 ]

[ SECRET POST #1990 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1990 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[Calvin and Hobbes]

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03.

[Golden Sun]

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04.

[Downton Abbey]

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05.

[Beyond: Two Souls]

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06.

[Veep]

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07.

[John Cooper Clarke]

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08.

[Kristen Stewart]

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09.

[A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones]

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10.

[The Social Network]

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11.

[Ray Bradbury]

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12.

[Protomen]

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13.

[Hamish & Andy]

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14.

[Falling Skies]

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15.

[Hetalia]

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16.

[Legend of Korra]

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17.

[Dragon Age: Origins]

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18.

[Minecraft]

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19.

[Jojo's Bizarre Adventure: Diamond is Unbreakable]

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20.

[Avengers]

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21.

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22.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 025 secrets from Secret Submission Post #284.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Why do people hate her so much? I've only seen the first season of the show and never read any of the books (and have zero interest in doing so) but she seemed like a pretty tough lady to me. Nothing really hate worthy. I'm guessing it has something to do with the books?

Well, Cat is not kind to Jon. She doesn't take him in as a son and when she's half out of her mind with exhaustion and grief at Bran's bedside, she tells Jon that it should have been him who fell from the tower. This is Cat's biggest flaw, for sure. But like, it inspires a really disproportionate amount of hate, if you ask me.

Some people hate her because they think she's a bad mother since she stayed with Robb (the son who was waging a rebellion) instead of going home to Winterfell with her other sons who were far away from the fighting and should have been perfectly safe (and they would have been too if Robb had listened to her about not sending Theon to Balon).

Others blame her for starting the war by capturing Tyrion (even though Cat had no reason to distrust Petyr's information and tried to avoid Tyrion all together). And really, no one could have expected Tywin's MASSIVE overreaction which started the war more than Cat's actions, imo.

Still others think she's an idiot because she traded Jaime for her girls. This isn't the most strategic move, but I love that moment because Cat brings a real human side to the whole conflict. In the books, she releases Jaime after finding out about Bran and Rickon's "deaths" and that is just the final straw. She can't sit by and do nothing while there is a chance that she could do SOMETHING to save her remaining children.

Then you have people who think she's whiny because in the chapter she narrates she mourns her dead husband.

Some people hate her because she pities Brienne (internally not to Brienne's face) for being ugly when Cat first sees her because Cat knows how hard much beauty is valued for women of Brienne's station. Although Cat and Brienne actually have a good relationship, so... I don't get hating her for that.

I don't know, I guess I can see all of those situations and if you're pretty set on not liking her those are great excuses, but they all seem to be really oversimplifying rather complicated situations.

Personally? I dislike her because her treatment of Jon hits way too close to home for me. As someone mentioned a few times elsewhere in the thread, she uses 'putting him in his place' as a coping mechanism, and I've...had people tell me for things that are just as impossible to control as the fact Jon was born. [Namely 'You're from here? Then it's my duty to put you in your place!' in my case.]

That combined with both the fact it seems, to me [and admittedly I've never read the books] like she's been doing it to Jon since he was a child...Just makes it very very hard for me to like her. I do understand *why* she does it but...-shrugs- I just can't respect her, or like it because of it.

Not OP, btw

That's understandable. Like llei said down below, there are just some characters that hit people the wrong way for personal reasons and that's perfectly fine. It's just...I feel she gets a really ridiculous amount of hate for very little logic. I mean, not saying you're not allowed to feel that way, it's just always struck me as very out of nowhere, so I asked. And you gave a reasonable answer.

But like, it inspires a really disproportionate amount of hate, if you ask me.

I hope you never take care of a child not biologically your own because that is just fucked up. Blaming a child for something a parent did is wrong. Treating your husband's child as below your own children is unfair. Telling a child he should have died instead of your child is sick. If you think any of that is okay, you shouldn't be anywhere near a child.

I meant in the context of the series.

Obviously Catelyn treatment of Jon is unacceptable in our world.

But.

The series is populated by pretty terrible people and Cat's crimes rank pretty low, imo. But I do understand that different people have different triggers and even if it doesn't make sense to ME, I can accept that people will love someone like Arya who assassinates people or someone like Jaime who pushed Bran out a window or Jon who separated a mother from her child while hating Cat at the same time.

DA

Maybe - but you're also forgetting how much damage telling a child who looks up to you [albeit, not as a mother in Jon's case] that they should have died can do. Add that to the fact that people tend to play 'follow the leader' in situations like that, and it's doubtful Cat was the only one who was treating him that way. Even in the context of the series, what she does is pretty horrible. Is it the most horrible thing? Obviously not, but holding her up and saying 'SEE? ALL THE OTHER CHARACTERS DO THINGS THAT ARE SO MUCH WORSE!' isn't really going to build a strong case. Particularly when you're talking about something that would be, in our world, fairly intense emotional abuse and/or [emotional] neglect of a child. I'm sorry if this part comes off rude, but...I'm not sure what's so hard to see about that striking a nerve with a lot of people? I'm not trying to be snarky, or an ass there...but I honestly don't see where that'd be hard to understand - just like I would feel for any of the other situations you mentioned.

it's doubtful Cat was the only one who was treating him that way

Nothing in Jon's narrative indicates that this is the case.

Jon looked up to Cat...?

Am I missing something?

Obviously not, but holding her up and saying 'SEE? ALL THE OTHER CHARACTERS DO THINGS THAT ARE SO MUCH WORSE!' isn't really going to build a strong case.

I think

fauxkaren wasn't so much building a case to like Cat as wondering why she got so much hate when other characters didn't. Like that those things other characters did are somehow ok when Cat's actions are not.

something that would be, in our world

But, as people keep saying, it's *not* our world, and it's important to remember that.

Also...

I find it bothersome that people seem to think Cat had some kind of obligation or responsibility towards Jon. I find that a little bit gross. You can't force an unwanted child on someone and then call it neglect that they didn't treat the child the right way, at least not with the same connotation as actual parental neglect. She was deeply hurt and insulted by Ned's unfaithfulness and keeping Jon around it tantamount to flaunting that unfaithfulness. And Ned's refusal to talk to her about him makes things worse. It's basically just "here, have a kid who only exists because I fucked another woman after marrying you, and now you get to raise him and be reminded of my unfaithfulness every day and I will never ever communicate with you about him or why I am keeping him here or what my plans are even though he present a threat to the children we have together. have a nice day :D"

I mean, do people really think that's ok? Because when you blame Cat 100% for her treatment of Jon, you are implying that you do think that's ok - that Cat had some kind of responsibility for Jon and wasn't in any way put-upon by Ned's actions. Basically, that the situation Ned created for her is ok.

Now let me be clear: I do NOT think everything Cat did to Jon was okay. It would have been wonderful of her to treat him better, but as has been pointed out, she is a flawed human being. The one thing that I can really get being totally unacceptable is her statement to Jon about him falling instead of Bran. Even then, that statement was made in a time of grief and deep emotional turmoil - that doesn't make it acceptable, but reflects on her character very differently than it would have had she said it in a normal state of mind.

Basically, yes, it sucks to be Jon, and Cat didn't really do anything to help with that, but let's face it - whose responsibility is it that Jon is in the position he's in? It is AT LEAST as much Ned's as it is Cat's - but do people blame Ned with the same vehemence? (I haven't seen much of the fandom so I'm not sure if they do.)

Context matters.

I don't think you fully understand the fantasy world in which this all takes place.

Seems a lot of people have that problem. You can't insert modern day rules and regulations on a fantasy universe.

This.

In other times, biological ties mattered much, much more than emotional ties.

Blood above everything else.

This, so much.

It's sort of hard to work out, because so much venom gets flung her way and an awful lot of it in certain corners is steeped in misogyny.

I think the root of it for a lot of people is the conflict between Cat and Jon Snow. We get more of her dislike for Jon early in the first book than there is in the TV show.

Jon Snow is a fandom favourite (young man, hard done by, pretty, emo, gets to be a bit of a hero despite illegitimacy). He's very young when we first meet him, and fits very easily into a 'goodie' paradigm. Cat's reasons for bitterness are less easily relatable. I think they are very human, and understandable, and that she's in a crap situation. But for some, she triggers their 'baddie' reflex too hard to care about that, because she's the most immediately audible voice making Jon aware of his status as a bastard.

(I don't mean to denigrate any legit Cat haters. I think we all have characters who hit a tender spot with us so that we're less-interested in trying for empathy with them. I have no patience for the "misunderstood and attractive villain". I guess plenty of people aren't into seeing past the "wicked stepmother". I think they're missing out on one of the best stories in ASoIaF by simplifying Cat, but most of us are guilty of that with some archetype.)

I think they're missing out on one of the best stories in ASoIaF by simplifying Cat, but most of us are guilty of that with some archetype.

Yeah. Cat's story is really wonderful and I love her so much and there is a LOT to her if you don't put her into the "wicked stepmother" or "angelic symbol of motherhood" slots. I think that's why a lot of people have problems with her. She doesn't fit neatly into EITHER of those roles. She's not really a wicked stepmother. She's a lot more human that than kind of caricature. But she's also not a saintly mother either. She is a good mother and she loves her kids, but she isn't perfect and she does things like let her grief over Bran consume her to the point where she isn't there for Rickon.

And I think it bothers people that Cat can't be slotted into either of those roles, but that is precisely part of why I love her. She's not an evil woman. She's not a perfect mother. She's just a person. She's a human with flaws that are understandable in the context of her life. She feels deeply. She loves powerfully. She makes mistakes.

I'm not involved in the fandom at all, but from the fringes (friends in the fandom, discussions here on F!S, etc) it honestly seems like it all boils down to some weird ass misogyny or plain ol' sexism. The old "tough man = awesome, tough woman = evil bitch" deal.

But like you said, there's always personal reasons why certain characters will just hit us the wrong way. So I understand it's not always straight forward, I was just really surprised because the only thing I really thought while watching the show as that it was such a relief to see a tough take charge lady in a fantasy series that wasn't a sex symbol (and especially so in that universe).

I can't stand her because she favours Bran and Robb over Jon, Arya, Sansa and Rickon. When Bran was injured, she let her FOUR YEAR OLD SON (I believe that's how old Rickon was) wander around the castle, going almost feral because he didn't know where his mommy was and felt unloved. She doesn't seem to give a damn about her daughters, it's all "Robb, King in the North!".

I have... issues with parental favouritism - my mother has (and still does) favoured my younger brother over me since we were children, allowing him to get away with bloody murder (not even finishing a semester at college because he preferred to get drunk/high, allowing him to emotionally abuse/bully me to the point where I left home early), while I'm punished for everything (while I received a college diploma, I couldn't finish university - so she threw me out, cut me off and didn't speak to me for two years), so seeing Catelyn act the way she does... It makes me hurt.

I honestly despise Jon as well (because he's a poorly written Gary Stu), so it's not that.

Understandable, and not arguing with you at all - in fact, I also think she heavily favored Sansa over Arya, which is another one of her flaws.

Cat obviously and understandably strikes a nerve for you.

I don't think we can really say that Cat doesn't care for Sansa or Arya, considering the whole time during the war, all she really cares about is ending the war and getting her daughters back. I'd go so far to say that her desire to get her daughters back borders on obsessive.

She really should've been a better mother to Rickon, though. No denying that.

That being said, I'm really sorry you had to put up with a family like that, and I can definitely see why Cat's character would bring back painful memories.

She doesn't seem to give a damn about her daughters, it's all "Robb, King in the North!".

Yeah, it's not like she went behind Robb's back and released an extremely valuable prisoner to get Sansa and Arya returned or anything. Oh, wait.

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[ SECRET POST #1990 ]

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TW: Emotional abuse, bullying, parental favouritism

Re: TW: Emotional abuse, bullying, parental favouritism

Re: TW: Emotional abuse, bullying, parental favouritism

Re: TW: Emotional abuse, bullying, parental favouritism