[ SECRET POST #2005 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2005 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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06. [nf]


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08. http://i.imgur.com/H1X1Z.gif
[linked because uh not sure if this is porn or not; live action]


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09. http://i.imgur.com/pNcu1.jpg
[porn of the drawn variety - Tintin]


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10.


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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]











11. [SPOILER WARNING for Hourou Musuko]



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12. [SPOILER WARNING for Prometheus]



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13. [SPOILER WARNING for Homestuck]



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14. [SPOILER WARNING for Avengers]



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15. [SPOILER WARNING for Merlin]



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16. [SPOILER WARNING for Tangled]



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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]












17. [WARNING for ... pretty sure this has something to do with rape]



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18. [WARNING for rape]



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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #286.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Oh god, the Spikefen are here...

[(Anonymous)]

No actually. I only find it a little questionable. Vampires are beings with human intellect and some human emotion, but are- due to the soul thing- incapable of being moral, correct? So like a very intelligent, but inhuman, animal.

The results are just as bad as if they were human ofc. The same things happen and everything is on human levels in terms of consequences:actions. But if they literally can't be moral, can you judge them the same on a moral scale?

[fenm]

Vampires are beings with human intellect and some human emotion, but are- due to the soul thing- incapable of being moral, correct?

No, not correct. We see soulless vampires in Buffy and Angel doing moral things--including Spike himself (for example, not giving Dawn's location away while being tortured). Honestly, Angel was the only character treated like having a soul made any real difference.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, see I don't actually know the show very well, I just knew that having a soul made a difference somehow.

If it didn't make a difference what was the big deal about Angel having one?

[(Anonymous)]

I think he just felt more guilty and shit

[(Anonymous)]

Guilty to human levels? So then vampires without souls have much less conscience? Was this ever explained?

[(Anonymous)]

Welllll, it's been a while since I've seen either show but I think Angel felt such horrible guilt over all the shitty things he had done that he literally was unable to keep doing said shitty things.

I think regular vampires could sort of feel guilt (I think? Maybe it depended on the vampire)

[(Anonymous)]

I thought it was that vampires generally didn't feel guilt at all and it wasnt really guilt so much as them not liking the consequences of their actions, which was why when Angelus did all his stuff, there was no guilt then when he got the soul back it was like angst explosion? (again I'm not very familiar with either show though, this is from watching like an ep here and there). I got the feeling all soulless vamps were sociopaths idk.

[(Anonymous)]

I think your interpretation might make more sense. I'm a little fuzzy on...everything tbh (I have the sudden urge to go on a Buffy binge)

[(Anonymous)]

I figure doing moral things for personal reasons isn't the same as actually being a moral being or doing it because its "right." Ummm like knowing something is evil isn't the same thing as feeling that it's evil. A vampire feeling bad that it killed somebody, it would be "I hate I had to kill this thing that I liked! argh! I'm sad now!" and not "I think killing people is bad" and they probs would be like IDGAF if it's somebody they don't have an interest in keeping alive?

...idek I could be throwing in headcanon though god it's been a long time

SA

[(Anonymous)]

Um I meant like "knowing something is considered by society to be evil" isn't the same as feeling it's evil for yourself, morally

[intrigueing.livejournal.com]

I believe all the soulless vamps were sociopaths except for Spike, who started developing a few rudimentary morals somewhere in season 5. My theory is that it's just really, really hard for vampires to acquire morals because their first overpowering instinct is to just kill and then lol over it, which Spike couldn't do due to the chip in his head.

Although Spike was also capable of love and affection, if not moral behavior, even before that, with Drusilla. Or maybe there's a range of morality for vampires as well -- it's just way, way on the evil side of the scale relative to human morality? Like, Spike is the vampire equivalent of an almost unbelievably saint-like good person, which is still, like, an evilness score of fifty KiloNazis in human terms, whereas Angelus is the vampire equivalent of a sadistic monster, which is, like, an evilness score of a thousand KiloNazis in human terms? I dunno, but part of the reason I like discussing this show so much is how open-ended some of the questions are.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

I could see love and affection and a lack of guilt at the same time. Like sociopaths can obsess and feel affection for people, because those people belong to them, or are a part of them? That doesn't mean they're normal or moral though.

[intrigueing.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that makes sense too. Kind of like how in season 2 he didn't want to destroy the world because he liked the world -- he liked eating people, and drag racing, and Manchester United. So I could see him not wanting anything to happen to Buffy or Dawn because he personally liked them, even if he wouldn't give a shit about those same things happening to anyone he didn't like.

[insanenoodlyguy]

You are correct. Some other people here are getting it wrong.

When a vampire is made, it's that person without a soul. So basically imagine a sociopathic you, but more then that, not just no conscience, but rather an actual urging to do bad things (namely, murder and feast upon the living). Your soul isn't just gone, it has been replaced with a demon, so your naturally inclined now to evil.

They showed us some interesting contrasts. For example, a psychopathic murderer was turned and was exactly the same only more thirsty now. By contrast, turn a pious nun (Drusilla) and you get a complete 180. There was little of the old her in what she became.

Spike (William) loved his mother, a kindly old woman. His first victim after becoming a vampire was her, with the intent of turning her. She came out cruel and vaguely incestuous, making his second act killing her for good in horror.

Interestingly, we see an alternate universe sunnydale, and vampire Willow, free of her own self-repression, was not only in charge, but realized her own bisexuality years before her human counterpart. (there's some debate on human willow due to what I frankly feel was some inconsistent writing, but vampire willow was definitely into both)

Spike was unique in that he felt grief over what he was, though we can assume he was motivated in part by self hatred more then anything. When he got his soul back, he went made for a while himself, suggesting it wasn't something he'd been able to process when still a vampire.

Angel's re-souling was considered a curse for a reason.

[(Anonymous)]

who was the psychopath that was turned?

[insanenoodlyguy]

Zachary Kralik. Some villian of the day, used in a slayer test in the episode "helpless." it was specified he was a serial killer before he turned.

he also still had a psychological dependence on psychotropic medications, though being a vampire should have corrected any actual physical need for the drugs.

But basically, the eviler you were naturally, the less change you'd notice overall. One character was a psych major before he turned, (and went to high school with buffy, thus having them both freeze up in recognition mid fight) and, in a somewhat silly episode, actually talked it out a bit with Buffy, observing the changes in himself but, being what he was now, clinically observant rather then horrified or guilty.

Favorite exchange:

Webs: Oh, my God!
Buffy: Oh, your God, what?
Webs: Oh, well, you know, not my God, because I defy him and all of his works. Does he exist? Is there word on that, by the way?
Buffy: Nothing solid.

[(Anonymous)]

But if you're a vampire, is it really evil if it's in your nature to be that way?

[insanenoodlyguy]

Yes, because if you are a vampire, you are by your nature an evil being. Evil is an objective thing in this world. Crosses and holy water burn vampires for a reason. There is evil, and good, and vampires are very nearly all in the former category, along with many other things.

A nice thing about fantasy worlds is sometimes morality can be that easy.

[i_paint_the_sky]

It's definitely tricky to explain. My best take on it is that soulless vamps obviously know right from wrong, they just generally don't care and don't make their decisions based on "morality." But given that Spike liked Dawn (it's been awhile since I saw the show so I don't remember the event in question) he could have protected because he wanted to, not because it was the right thing to do.

That said it really doesn't completely excuse all of his actions, certainly not rape (the killing people thing is where I personally allow a bit more leniency because, well, humans are their primary food source).

[(Anonymous)]

Anon OP of thread

That's what I meant, yes. I always thought that they can know that people consider certain things right, and certain things wrong but they don't feel that personally or on a moral level because of the lack of soul. Somebody telling them that murder is wrong would be the same as a religious person telling a lesbian that being gay is wrong. "I get that you think that way. I don't necessarily believe it."

[insanenoodlyguy]

It's bit more then that.

Whedon vampires have their souls replaced by a minor demon. It's not just soulless you, it's more like if your soul was naturally evil instead.

So it's more like "Oh Yes, absolutely it's wrong. Why do you think I'm doing it?"

[kathkin]

He didn't save Dawn because it was the moral thing to do, he did it because he knew losing Dawn would hurt Buffy. He became capable of doing the right thing, but for the wrong reasons.

[(Anonymous)]

*Insert argument of "This is a show about VAMPIRES. Don't you know anything about VAMPIRES?" here followed by "He just needed someone to love him!" for good measure*