[ SECRET POST #2030 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2030 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


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02.
[Nana to Kaoru, Oyasumi Punpun, Onani Master Kurosawa]


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03.
[Terry Pratchett]


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04.
[The Hollow Crown: Henry IV]


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05.
[Tori Amos]


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06.
[Dragon Age: Origins]


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07.
[Rihanna, S&M]


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08.
[LotR RPF]


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09.
[On the Road]


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10.
[SM Entertainment - Super Junior, SHINee and EXO]


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11.
[Sherlock]


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12.
[Planescape Torment]


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13.
[The Devil in the White City]


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14.
[CATverse]


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15.
[Fate/stay night]


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16.
[Rammstein]


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17.
[Mass Effect]


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18.
[Metalocalypse]


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19.
[Arashi, V6]


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20.
[Legend of Korra]


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 063 secrets from Secret Submission Post #290.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ], [ 1 - personal attack ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: *Sniff* I smell TWoP or MW

[lunabee34]

I was thinking MW too.

Re: *Sniff* I smell TWoP or MW

[cakemage]

I haven't been keeping up with MR/MW lately (he's not reviewing any shows/books I'm into at the moment), what happened?

All secondhand gossip

[lunabee34]

I don't read the blog or follow it either, but my friend had to call me last week with the deets *rubs hands together* after MW exploded into a chasm of wank and despair on the watching of "Smashed" and "Wrecked." Apparently, Mark doesn't like Spike anyway, and he really doesn't like Spike and Buffy together and all the Spuffy shippers felt dogpiled on in what amounted to a re-articulation of all the Spike arguments of the early 2000s and Mark banninated like a whole bunch of people. According to my friend, part of his argument was the Buffy can't consent to sex with Spike in those episodes because 1) she's depressed and 2) she regrets it later which left a lot of people going "Uh, what now?"

Re: All secondhand gossip

[cakemage]

Ah, I see. Thanks!

Re: All secondhand gossip

[lunabee34]

No prob. :)

Re: All secondhand gossip

[(Anonymous)]

That's not an entirely accurate account. I've been staying out of the arguments, because there's a whole lot of crazy going on ("crazy" by the way, being one of the words you're not allowed to say over there because it's a word that's been used for the mentally ill, and now, apparently, if you call something bad "crazy" you're calling people who are mentally ill bad. Or something to that effect), but it basically boils down to this:

All the old arguments about Buffy, Spike and Spuffy came back up -- and Mark has said he actually likes Spike (and sort of the idea of Spuffy), he just hates what Spike is doing right now. The problems mostly seemed to originate from a comment about "Smashed," in which somebody made the age-old argument of Buffy's actions ("climbing Spike like a tree," was one of the phrases tossed around) not reflecting her statements. To which a commenter said that gave off "rapey vibes" and then a moderator agreed and said that needed to stop too.

And then that turned into talk of Seeing Red, and yeah, the Spike supporters did get dogpiled and not in nice ways at all. Any attempt at reasonable discussion about the characters and their motivations that didn't circle back to "Spike Bad; Buffy Good" was answered with "That's disgusting; you're creepy STOP TALKING NOW (complete with kind of violent choke-holdey GIFs); fuck yous and fuck offs"

Because, you know, all that bad Spike-supporting behavior is victim-blaming and rape apologizing and must surely be making all the real victims of rape and abuse on the board who reported those comments feel just awful! (Never mind that some of the people the mods lashed out at later came back and said they too had been victims of abuse).

Mark didn't REALLY come into the fray until somebody accused Buffy of being abusive. Actually -- she accused both Buffy and Spike of being abusive to each other, but that Buffy's using of Spike for sex while constantly demeaning him was akin to Angelus-style torture -- which, I think is taking it to a bit of an extreme, but not to the level Mark did.

Because Mark came back with "What the hell, do you even understand what torture and abuse are?" to which the poster said "Having experienced it, yes. ... what Buffy did was like to telling a suicidal person they don't deserve to live." Someone else blah-blahs that "NO! That's what Spike did to Buffy when he said she came back wrong!" (also a leap, if you ask my opinion) and Mark's response was, (and this is copy pasta here, because...I didn't realize I cared so much either):

"As someone who was suicidal for YEARS of my life, NO IT WAS NOT. IT LITERALLY WAS NOTHING LIKE THAT. Again, either Spike is entirely amoral with no moral center, or he has morals and can be affected in a moral way. You do not get to pick and choose. You are equivocating things that aren't even remotely the same, and it is seriously, massively, and horrifically fucked up to do so"

And, you know, once the leader of your board starts telling people how fucked up they are, acting like his experience is the only one and ignoring the hostility of his own moderators, it becomes open-season. The next day he was all "OMG, GUISE! I'm sorry it got so out of hand, but modding is HARD! We were stressed out by all the gross behavior being displayed!" (not a direct quote).

Well...re-reading I guess it IS pretty much like you said, minus the "Mark hates Spike" thing.

Re: All secondhand gossip

[lunabee34]

Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification. This is what happens when you spread gossip. Bound to get something wrong. LOL

All around it sounds like it was an unfortunate situation and that Mark handled it pretty badly for a mod. I know a lot of Old Skool Buffy fans, my friend included, have enjoyed reading the recaps and comments as a way of sort of re-experiencing Buffy through fresh eyes--and now that enjoyment is gone for a lot of them if they aren't outright banned. :( That's a huge shame.

*hugs*

Re: All secondhand gossip

[(Anonymous)]

Spuffy shippers always 'felt dogpiled' even when they were the vast majority in Buffydom and bullying others left, right and centre.

And when I say bullying, I'm talking accusing other pairing shippers of being unfit to be parents (happened to me),publically persecuting someone who just didn't want to host Spuffy fic on her site (which said host expressed perfectly politely and by private email - happened to a friend), publishing the contents of private emails on public forums (also happened to me), etc etc ad a hell of a lot of infinitum.

Huge martyr complexes and most of them whiny, nasty, childish bastards in my experience.

Re: All secondhand gossip

[(Anonymous)]

As a non-Spike fan who's been on MW lurking/occasionally posting without an account, I agree with your assessment of Spuffy fans in general. I keep seeing all these claims of being this abused and marginalized faction, and yet by far the single largest aggregation of fanworks in the Buffyverse pertains to them as far as I can see. I've gotta admit, even if what most of what they say of the nastiness they've faced is true, I'd still happily trade places if that meant my favorite pairing (which is canon!) got even a quarter of the attention theirs does.

That said, Mark and his mods were a bunch of complete self-righteous jerks to at least a few of these people. I didn't read every single pertinent thread on the comments for the "Smashed" review, but I saw at least one clear instance in which a poster politely and intelligently offered another perspective on a key scene primarily by giving a blow by blow description of what actually happened. The mods piled on, followed by Mark, and they actually swore at this person while posting some nasty GIFs, calling him/her a "rape apologist" through extrapolation far beyond what the OP actually said--which was basically that Spike and Buffy had a co-abusive relationship and that Buffy was in charge throughout the episode in question. Others who came to the OP's defense ended up getting dragged down as well.

That's just what I saw. It was nasty no matter who you fan or ship, and it really reflected badly upon the culture of MW (note that I didn't see the supposed "bad people" swearing or insulting, just Mark and the mods). According to Mark, there were tenfold that number saying apparently unconscionable things that we didn't get to see, but even if that's the case some who meant no harm got caught up in it all.

Re: All secondhand gossip

[lunabee34]

Well those are really terrible things to do to other fans, and I'm sorry those happened to you and your friends. :(

I'm not really a Spuffy shipper myself (except insofar as I always ship everybody with everybody LOL), but the Spuffy people I knew back in the day and still know have always been kind-hearted Good Fans of Class. Granted, I was not deeply involved in the het side of the fandom (and really only got into the fandom as it started to wane in 2004) and probably missed a lot of wank as a consequence.