fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2047 ]

[ SECRET POST #2047 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2047 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Penn & Teller]

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04.

[Twilight]

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08.

[Prometheus]

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10.

[Rainbow; the Boondocks]

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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

12. [SPOILERS for walking dead]

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13. [SPOILERS for portal 2]

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14. [SPOILERS for ASOIAF/game of thrones]

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15. [SPOILERS for the dark knight rises]

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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

16. [WARNING for abuse]

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17. [WARNING for rape]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #292.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - ships it ], [ 1 - insulting the readers doesn't help ], [ 1 - come on, a LITTLE effort ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

See, this is what I mean. You're trying to justify the attempted murder (and crippling) of a child. Jaime could have easily said "Don't tell anyone what you've seen here."

Jaime had options but this wasn't one of them, come on. And no, I'm not justifying it, but you can't act like attempted murder of a child (Jaime has two on his conscience, actually) is equal to all that Tyrion did. Jaime doesn't get the same amount of hate as Tyrion because he had a better reasons for what he did at least in one case, he did less harm, even if that wasn't what he intended and he isn't guilty of any sexualized violence. Jaime tried to kill Bran and Arya, but Tyrion actually killed a woman, raped another twice, threatened another one with rape and murder, married a 13 year-old hostage knowing that his family will kill her brother with the intent of sleeping with her to get her inheritance, unleashed the mountain clans (rapists and murderers) upon smallfolk and citizens of the capital, expressed a wish to rape his sister, threatened to rape a child to his mother.. Am I forgetting something? I probably am.

Oh for fuck's sake... Now you're blaming Tyrion for what happened to Sansa even though he wanted nothing to do with it and even offered Sansa to stop their marriage so she could marry someone she found more appealing? And even refused to touch her until she was ready and never once forced her to do anything? I don't blame Sansa at all but Tyrion was nothing but nice to her.

And yes, I think throwing a child out a window and breaking his spine is worse than what Tyrion did to Shae. If you're talking about threats now, Tyrion also threatened to put someone's child on a trebuchet so he's certainly not above that.

LMAO. He wanted everything in that marriage. He wanted Winterfell, as he thought to himself, and he wanted her in the physical sense and he also wanted her to love him. He didn't warn her about the marriage in advance (he knew at least a week before) and let her be shocked by Cersei with her "you can run but you will be dragged to the altar by the same men that beat you" approach on their wedding day. He did offer her to stop their marriage, but she was still getting married in a few minutes to a Lannister and her only other choice was Lancel, the guy who participated in her abuse. What a great choice that was, huh? "Someone she found more appealing" would be Loras or you know, Willas. The guy that Lannisters, including Tyrion, wanted to stop her from marrying, which was the reason they married her to one of her own.
Let me guess, you are also forgetting that he made her strip for him, groped her breasts and forced her to look at him naked, while knowing that she didn't want any of it, before oh-so-heroically deciding he didn't want to rape her?
But I guess he was kind of nice. For a Lannister participating in a power grab. Which may be the important part when we are talking about the forced marriage of a 13 year-old girl in order to steal her inheritance which she is only entitled to after her brother gets murdered.

Yeah, we disagree. Shae is dead after being slowly and painfully murdered, and Bran is thankfully alive, so I count him more lucky. What Jaime did to him is still horrendous, as well as his hunt for Arya and threat towards Edmure.

Clearly we disagree on the fact that throwing an innocent child out of a window with the intention of killing him and showing no remorse afterwards isn't that bad as long as you only break his spine and cripple him for life.

Awww, that is a nice strawman. You know that we were talking about Jaime in comparison to Tyrion and why some people in the fandom reacts to them as they do and not about his actions on their own, but you have nothing to say in reponse to comments about Tyrion, so you just have to make something out of the Jaime thing, don't you?

I already responded to everything I had to say about Tyrion. If it's getting to the point where you're blaming him for something that he had no say over to the point where you're straying from what GRRM intended as an author, then there's not a whole lot left to discuss.

The difference is I'm willing to acknowledge Tyrion's actions against Shae were wrong-- I just don't think they pushed him past redemption and made him a horrible person. Whereas you're trying to justify the crippling of an innocent child and saying it's not as bad because he didn't die even if he was supposed to.

You're just reaching for anything to make your point look good. And, might I add, failing spectacularly. What Jaime did was bad, but he did it to save the lives of his lover and 3 children. What Tyrion did, he did out of hurt pride and generally being pissed off. The 'why' matters.

The why matters

Good to know. I guess the fact that Tywin caused the Red Wedding as a way to win without further bloodshed mitigates the fact that Catelyn and Robb were butchered.5

and we started talking about Tywin... when? Tywin's an asshole - that's pretty clearly established as soon as he's mentioned.

Yes but as you said the 'why' matters.

If Jaime's tossing a child out of a window is mitigated by him looking out for his children, then Tywin's slaughter should be mitigated by the fact that he was trying to win the war in a way that saved more lives and not out of any personal rage.

It was also the Westerosi equivalent of a War Crime. But yes, given your example, Tywin is seen as pretty shitty for agreeing to it, but Lord Frey is seen as far worse, because he just did it out of hurt pride and spite. So the same logic applies.

It didn't save more lives. That was an excuse, in reality thousands of people were butchered.

If Jaime wanted to save the lives of his lover and three children, he should've kept it in his pants in the house of their enemies.

he should've kept it in his pants in the house of their enemies.

this. seriously, this.

Thank you.

1. They weren't enemies yet.

2. Yeah, Jaime isn't always the brightest.

Maybe not enemies in the sense that they were openly hostile to each other (it's been a while since I read book 1), but Jaime's got the whole kingslayer stigma attached to him; Cersei's cheating on her husband, the king, who is one of Ned's best friends; and it's well-known that Ned Stark's whole thing is Honor, Honor, Honor. Ned's home isn't a safe place to be doing any of that (if there's even such a thing as a safe place for them).

Ummmm... you are aware from his POV chapter that he wasn't even thinking about his children when he pushed Bran out the window? It was all about his relationship with Cersei. Not the "greater good" but pure selfishness on his part.

He doesn't even view them as his children and it's only until much later that he attempts to see Tommen as anything but a "squirt in Cersei's cunt" (or something along those lines).

What's wrong with him wanting something that everyone else does in a marriage? He didn't have a say in marrying Sansa, he was forced into it almost as much as she was. Who wouldn't want the person they're supposed to spend the rest of their lives with and have children with to have SOME sort of good feelings towards them?

I guess he could have warned Sansa but he had barely any interaction with her before then. And I can't recall Lancel doing anything to Sansa. Not saying it didn't happen but I honestly can't remember. Additionally at the time Lancel was pretty much in a coma so while Sansa would still have to be married to him, she wouldn't have to deal with him much.

How did Tyrion want to stop Sansa from marrying Willas? Tywin pretty much concocted the whole scheme after finding out about it in order to stop the Tyrells from gaining that much power. He simply used Tyrion to seal the deal.

What's wrong with him wanting something that everyone else does in a marriage? He didn't have a say in marrying Sansa, he was forced into it almost as much as she was.

It's wrong because he's not entitled to it and she's a victim of his family that he wouldn't have married if he cared even a bit about her feelings. He did have a say in marrying Sansa — he could have refused and she would have been wed to Lancel and he would have carried on just as he always have, except knowing that he didn't have a lordship. He agreed to the marriage because he wanted Winterfell, after being told that he won't ever have Casterly Rock or a pretty highborn wife. Everyone refused to marry their daughters to him, so his options were Sansa and Lollys.

"I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is. I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust."
"Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill. "Very good, Father," he said slowly"

Who wouldn't want the person they're supposed to spend the rest of their lives with and have children with to have SOME sort of good feelings towards them?

He forced her to marry him, because he was as much of a jailer to her as the rest of the Lannisters. He at one point in his Handship actually could have let her go home, but didn't and issued ridiculous terms that ensured she would never go home. And he could only have children with her after he raped her, because she didn't want him at. all. and those children would used for Lannisters to take the North after murdering her brother. It doesn't matter what Tyrion wants.

I guess he could have warned Sansa but he had barely any interaction with her before then.

He could have had zero interaction with her before then, it's still a shitty choice not to warn her. Everyone knew except her when she was told "cry all you want but you will be married and raped today!"

And I can't recall Lancel doing anything to Sansa. Not saying it didn't happen but I honestly can't remember.

He read out the news about Robb's victory to Sansa and stood by and watched when Joffrey ordered her beaten and stripped naked in the yard because of that victory.

How did Tyrion want to stop Sansa from marrying Willas? Tywin pretty much concocted the whole scheme after finding out about it in order to stop the Tyrells from gaining that much power. He simply used Tyrion to seal the deal.

And Tyrion agreed.

But as it was pointed out above Sansa would only have the option of marrying Tyrion or Lancel. Either way Sansa was fucked and yes Tyrion did take advantage of that to get himself a lordship. There was no way Tywin was gonna allow Sansa to marry Willas or anyone else BUT a Lannister. So yes Tyrion could have refused but the only good it would have done Sansa is she would be married to someone closer to her in age, someone who, as you pointed out, stood by while she was beaten. Tyrion was the very one who stopped the beating and Sansa even said he had been kind to her.

You bolded the sentence in that paragraph about Winterfell but seemed to miss everything else said in it. He wants to comfort her through her sorrows and make her happy. Yea you could say he might not have the right to, since his family is the cause of her own family's death, but its certainly not like all he cared about was getting a lordship. Maybe at the beginning but further on he wanted them to have a happy marriage and for her to be happy with him.

Tyrion couldn't have known that he would have to rape her to get her with child. He didn't want to rape her, which is why he told her he would not touch her until she wanted him to. He was hoping that eventually she would want him as much as he wanted her. (And I haven't gotten to the book where he does perform rape so I'm judging him by where he's at in the third - it's disappointing to hear he sinks that low)

I can't recall what he did in his Handship to stop her from going home. Was it the trade her for Jaime?

Um... no.

Just because Jaime's attempt at murder failed doesn't make it any more forgivable than a successful murder. And there is no "better reason" for trying to kill a helpless child. I don't give a damn what it meant for his own family - maybe he and Cersei should have thought of that before they started sleeping together. Their actions have consequences, and those consequences are no secret. That doesn't mean that it's JUSTIFIABLE to shove a kid off a tower. Unlike Shae, who's an adult and knows how the hierarchy works and could choose to do what she had to do to try to defend herself, Bran... was a kid, playing on the castle wall, who happened to see something he wasn't meant to, and was crippled and almost died for it. Not okay.

Jaime's not better than Tyrion. Tyrion's not better than Jaime. They're both terrible people. (I say, as a fan of both of them.)

aime had options but this wasn't one of them, come on. And no, I'm not justifying it, but you can't act like attempted murder of a child (Jaime has two on his conscience, actually) is equal to all that Tyrion did.

So ... would they be equivalent if Jaime HAD succeeded in killing a child...WHAT?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #2047 ]

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