fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2056 ]

[ SECRET POST #2056 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2056 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 110 secrets from Secret Submission Post #294.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - titc ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Thank you.

I don't know the comic so I really don't know what I think of any particular character, but I get really sick of

Someone: How dare you be of the opinion that so and so would never switch? You're telling me I can't fantasize about him on the bottom, you meaniefacehead!!
Me: I'm not telling you to do anything. I just really don't see that character being able to let go of his pride like that. It's his defining characteristic, as I see him. So a writer who wants to convince me he likes to give up control has to do the character development work to convince me -- and even if they do, I might not like it as much as I like him on top. That's all I said. Nothing about you or what you like.
Someone: Shows what you know! Everyone who knows anything about kink knows that it's people who are really take-charge who want to submit! You must not know about the real world!
Me: I was an active member in my local BDSM community for ten years, I'm still kinky as a cheap garden hose, and I find "proud people submit in bed" kind of... threadbare as a cliche. Are you saying I'm a doormat everywhere but my bedroom?
Someone: Whatever, you're closed minded.
Me: ....'Kay.

It's more incomprehensible to me when people whine about it and the canon in question is unashamed yaoi.

If you dislike yaoi as a whole, that's understandable. Plenty of reasons to dislike yaoi as a genre. But the whole basic point of yaoi as a genre is that you have two people on extreme ends of the dominant/submissive spectrum that don't deviate much from those extremes. If you are talking about a yaoi series, given that it's a yaoi series, it's just dumb to be like "OP how dare you expect the defining trope of this genre to exist in this genre? How dare you expect and want the defined seme that fills one of the two main roles in the defined genre to continue being seme and filling one of the two main roles in the defined genre?"

It's a little facepalm inducing.

I agree with this completely. I'm not even sure why people who dislike yaoi rant about it so much. Uh, don't read it?

Haha I've had people straight up not believe me and accuse me of being misogynist when I told them I don't bottom and never have. Yes, I know perfectly well that you can top from the bottom. No, my disinterest in bottoming has nothing to do with the idea of 'penetration = being the woman'. Lots of people enjoy bottoming, I agree. But it plain and simple doesn't interest me and I don't have any inclination to try it out.

I don't eat yogurt, either, and never have. I know perfectly well that it can have the same texture of other foods I like. No, my disinterest in it has nothing to do with the idea that it's considered an 'unmasculine' food. Lots of people love yogurt. But it doesn't interest me and I don't have any inclination to try it out.

If you love either one, that's great for you but if you insist I have to try either of those to make sure I don't like it because this is somehow just that personally important to you, I'm going to refuse, thank you, and think you have strange priorities. Doubly so for the first one because jesus what I do with my body is none of your business.

If someone were writing me in a romance, this would be a defining point. I don't see how it's so hard for people to understand that it can also be characters' defining points, when they're written in a romance. And if that point changed well maybe that's not a story you want to read any more. /shrug

This is hilarious to me btw.

Girl: NO COCKS IN MY ASS! DNW!
Everyone's first reaction: Good for you, if anyone pressures you they're creeps! Don't do anything you don't want to do!

Guy: NO COCKS IN MY ASS! DNW!
Everyone first reaction: OMG burn the homophobe!

You know it's true.

Hee.

Yep.

Or "You're acting like someone in a manga" which, dude what the fuck?

Pretty much this, yeah.

I also find it weird when people cite real life. I think a lot of people who have defined preferences, whether in kink or sex or both together, have tried mixing things up or doing things different. (But I think there's nothing wrong with not doing so.)

But, well, characters are not people whose lives we see every moment of. We see the important moments, the moments that are part of their story. If their romance is about what they're normally like, there's no real reason not to skip any exception-making moments. (A story might be about those moments -- say, Jake really would prefer to bottom but thinks it's unmanly so he's always topped, and the whole story is about Steve teaching him to let go of his hangups and be himself. But that's... not most yaoi.)

And not everyone's life even has exception-making moments anyway.

Real people don't always do everything. It seems we should care LESS whether characters do, not MORE.

So bottoming means you can't be proud, now? Holy shit, are you really that stupid?

Nope. That's not what I was saying, though I admit I wasn't clear. What I mean is that it really annoys me when fangirls insist that characters switch because they say they do. I feel that in their fic or their explanations , they need to be sure that they say more than just "everyone switches." If a character is the type to feel that bottoming would involve losing face, the fan's fic, art, or explanation should deal with that elephant in the room in some way that's deeper than the old saw of dominant or prideful seeming people secretly wanting to submit.

I don't think real people should think less of others or themselves for roles or preferences or kinks. But I think if a big part of a character's personality is "I surrender to nobody" -- say a villain type -- and the character is also shown to be a top, I want more explanation than the old bromide for why that's not how I should interpret them.

Better?

No, because that wasn't what you said at all in that first comment.

I just really don't see that character being able to let go of his pride like that.

Right there, you are assigning a sexual position based solely on a personality trait. Which is not only stupid, but carries some pretty gross heteronormative overtones.

Heteronormative? IDTS. The character may take pride in not submitting to anyone or anything and if that character takes pride in that, for them to enjoy doing the utter and total opposite would be OOC.

In no way was that a generalization of "all subs/bottoms, ever, have no pride." WTF even. If a character takes pride in being indomitable, then it applies to that character and that character's pride. Not every proud character, there are obviously proud bottom and sub characters out there.

Conflating receiving penetration with submission is gross heteronormative bullshit. It's misogynistic as hell and I wish people would get out of that mindset.

The character may take pride in not submitting to anyone or anything and if that character takes pride in that, for them to enjoy doing the utter and total opposite would be OOC.

THANK YOU ANON.

This is what I had in mind. A character who I think of feeling this way. That I think he feels this way does NOT mean I agree with him. Just that I think he does.

Also don't know where the fuck pearl-clutcher-nonny is getting the idea that I conflate submission with bottoming simply because I think A PARTICULAR CHARACTER would.

Christ on a cracker, people.

Edited 2012-08-20 23:55 (UTC)

Eh. I see why you're saying that, but again, I'm talking about characters. Characters are flawed.

I don't want to read about people who are perfect. I want to read about people whose personalities influence what they do -- and I definitely appreciate when writers take the care to show how their personalities influence their sex lives, for better and for worse.

The "heteronormative" thing I'm not touching unless you, yourself, are queer. I'm tired of straight women bitching about depictions of queer sex and pretty much done with white knights.

So... are you queer, nonny?

And what exactly does being flawed have to do with how a person likes to fuck? A preferred sexual position is not a goddamn personality trait. You're treating it like one, and then backpedaling like Lance Srmstrong on speed when you're called out.

I am a queer, actually. But, you know, thanks for assuming shit about me because it makes you more comfortable to subscribe to the misogynistic mindset that receiving penetration is "submitting" and proud people just don't get fucked.

Whatever. You answered my question, I guess. You really are that fucking stupid.

For some people it is a personality trait. For others it isn't.

Just because it's not for you doesn't mean it isn't for some people. And also, CHARACTERS IN STORIES. Stop talking to me like you know about my life because I said something about A CHARACTER in A STORY.

Also, if we're talking about mindsets... what the hell exactly is wrong with submitting? Because you keep talking like it's gross, and that's really insulting.

For some people it is a personality trait

No, it fucking isn't. Full stop.

Stop talking to me like you know about my life because I said something about A CHARACTER in A STORY.

Says the person who assumed I'm a straight person because I disagree with you? Fucking lol.

what the hell exactly is wrong with submitting? Because you keep talking like it's gross, and that's really insulting.

Absolutely nothing. But I never implied that. You did by insisting it's the opposite of proud.

At least you're an amusing idiot, I'll give you that.

I didn't assume you were straight. I asked if you were straight. I said that i wouldn't be interested in engaging straight white knights, because honestly... I'm not. I'm tired of people who don't actually know anything about real-world queer culture (especially spaces that do involve kinks based on role, such as queer leather) talking in broad generalities about a culture they are not personally acquainted with and have no personal investment in.

I really think you need some evidence for "No, it fucking isn't." Burden of proof is on you for making the claim that no one for whom it is a personality trait exists.

But I never implied that. You did by insisting it's the opposite of proud.

Again, I see why you read what I was saying that way. I don't think I can convince you it's not what I meant. But it really is not what I meant. I was talking about a character who I have a hard time imagining bottoming because I think HE WOULD FEEL that doing so would be an insult to his pride. I was saying that for that character, or others like him, I have a hard time going along with fans characterizing him differently and therefore want characterization that either a) convinces me that he doesn't actually tie these things together in his head or b) shows him changing his mind.

I said nothing about characters who are bottoms or submissives. I meant to say that if the character is similar to the one I'm thinking of, I can imagine also feeling like I wouldn't buy him switching without character development.

I do agree with you that it sounded like I was making some larger claim. I can only assert that I was not, and hope you'll understand I'm not lying. But I don't know if at this point you want to engage with me; you seem to prefer the "idiot" you assumed me to be.

real-world queer culture

Yeah, fuck you right there, you miserable little shit. There is no such thing as "queer culture". Who you fuck is not a culture and if you think it is, you are what's wrong with this planet.

Burden of proof is on you for making the claim that no one for whom it is a personality trait exists.

As soon as you provide some proof that real-life people develop temporary DID from changing sexual positions (because that's what OOC would mean in the real world). Since you made that claim first.

I do agree with you that it sounded like I was making some larger claim. I can only assert that I was not, and hope you'll understand I'm not lying.

No, I think you're backpedaling because facing that you said something shitty makes you uncomfortable. Which is just as bad.

Yeah, fuck you right there, you miserable little shit. There is no such thing as "queer culture". Who you fuck is not a culture and if you think it is, you are what's wrong with this planet.

Um.

You seriously don't think there are any subcultural aspects to any queer spaces? At all?

I don't think we're even living on the same planet if you don't think explicitly queer spaces exist.

Not everyone's big on them -- I'm very much not, at this point. But denying that they exist is weird. Advocating that people not bother with them, all right, though that seems a little, er... getting too involved in other people's lives, to me.

PS. There's no such thing as "OOC" for real people. Real people != characters

Edited 2012-08-21 00:30 (UTC)

That's what I figured you thought. I see your point, and it's why I generally don't partake of that stuff myself. But personally I don't see it as some sort of pernicious stain on existence, just as something I'm not interested in. And I've got to admit the leather community is fun. Though I'm not one who would exclude straight leatherfolk, so yeah, I guess I'm kind of with you there?

for some people, it's a personality trait

Which I do think it is. I've known people who vastly prefer to be penetrator or penetratee, and/or who vastly prefer to dominate or submit. (Sometimes these are not the same people, as you point out -- there are submissive tops and dominant bottoms.)

I don't think if these people do something different it changes who they are, so I don't know where the DID comment came from. I just think they have marked preferences.

You'll probably go right back to loathing me (if you ever stopped) for saying this, but I suspect that preference is innate for some people. That's why I call it a personality trait for those people. I sometimes suspect it might have something to do with hormones (like in those famous rat studies) but I'm not at all sure of that.

I can do something against my general personality without developing DID. So can a character, but as I said, I'd personally prefer to see the whole context of that when reading fic.

Edited 2012-08-21 00:54 (UTC)

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I think this "culture" you speak of is nothing but a case of identity politics and people being stupid and assigning more importance than they ever should to something that really shouldn't matter. That doesn't make it a "culture" in any way. There is no such thing as gay music, gay food, gay dress, gay customs, gay mythology, gay traditions, etc.

...The ever loving fuck?

There is. By definition, culture addresses the belief systems, discourse, standards, norms, and principles. And there is in fact, queer culture. It deals mainly deals with us with having our presence acknowledged, our rights not being trampled over, being able to associate with other LGBT people. It's not big, but it still counts as culture, a subculture, if you really will, so take your angry shit-eating bullshit elsewhere and stop implying that you represent what defines a queer person in real life, because the last few posts, you seem hell bent that your interpretation is the one and only true standard to abide by and if other queers don't fit that scope, they're just perpetuating a stereotype you think is abhorrent.

Stop speaking for me. I have a preference and a strong leaning to one sexual position and have zero desire for the other, and although it's not a personality trait, it fucking well influences how I interact with who I damn well want to sleep with.

Go eat shit you fucking overbearing moronic pile of fecal matter.

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(Anonymous) - 2012-08-26 17:51 (UTC) - Expand

Thank you stainless. Really...
The whole "proud person who secretly craves to submit" thing is also a tired cliche. I'm sick of people acting like it's God's own truth which applies to every "proud, take-charge" character.
Also, I wish people wouldn't take this issue so personally (when we're dealing with fictional characters). FFS.

Thank you! You get what I meant, exactly.

The whole "proud person who secretly craves to submit" thing is also a tired cliche. I'm sick of people acting like it's God's own truth which applies to every "proud, take-charge" character.

That. Yes. I don't have a problem with characters -- or people -- who are outwardly proud and submissive. Heck, I love Atlas Shrugged (though I disagree almost 100% with the politics)!

I just think that that is not the only reason for submission out there, and also feel, if that is accepted as universal (as it sometimes seems to be in fandom) then well, what does that say about dominance? It implies something kind of insulting about dominants IMO.

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