[ SECRET POST #2074 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2074 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Sam Winchester, Young Hercules]


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[La Pucelle: Tactics]


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Notes:

Important: I'm really sorry about this, but I accidentally misclicked and deleted the submission post from last week instead of saving it. Managed to save the first page (25) of secrets, but the rest (about 100 or so) are gone.

If you submitted something last week (Aug 26-Sept 1), please resubmit it here.

The submissions post for next week is below as usual.

Secrets Left to Post: ?? pages, ??? secrets from Secret Submission Post #296.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Soooo... you're saying it's wrong for her to sing about a girl making her own way and supporting herself when women are typically stereotyped as weak stay-at-home moms who rely on their husband's income just to live?

... What?

[ariakas]

That isn't what the song is about. At all. She is stereotyping women as weak and incapable of staking care of themselves. She literally says that being financially independent and not being out for money > love makes her not like "every" girl. Ergo, "every" other girl is a dumb, weak, goldigger. Hell, the title of the song states that, at the very least, "most" are like that (and Pink is not).

Fuck you, female doctors! And lawyers! And servicewomen! You're all stupid goldigging whores and this popstar isn't like you!

[(Anonymous)]

Sounds like you're reading too far into it, tbh. I took it more as addressing the stereotype and then smacking the girls that buy into the gold-digger ideal in the face with a little wake-up call telling them to be independent and not rely on other people just to get by. I don't think she was trying to say "fuck you" to anybody. :\

[darkmanifest]

The song is addressing the R&B/urban stereotype about women bragging about landing dudes who are paid as a form of validation. This is what "most girls" means, and it's true that even as women make money of our own, straight women are still much more heavily pressured to care about her partner's cash flow than straight men are ever expected to care about their girlfriends' income.

Regardless, I know a few women who survive/have survived via honest money and gifts from men (child support, exotic dancing, marriages of convenience), so I'm more offended by YOUR characterization of such women as gold-digging vultures, stupid, weak, and incapable. These are all YOUR words that don't come up in the song. A lot of woman don't have to option to be picky about what they do to get out of poverty in a sexist world intent on keeping women and children disadvantaged. You sound really condescending and doing more to come down on women than the song ever did.

[ariakas]

Regardless, I know a few women who survive/have survived via honest money and gifts from men (child support, exotic dancing, marriages of convenience), so I'm more offended by YOUR characterization of such women as gold-digging vultures, stupid, weak, and incapable.

Except, that's, like, literally the opposite of what I said. Literally. That is exactly the sentiment that I was deriding the song for having. Here are words that I actually typed, rather than made up ones:

It wasn't "risky" it was sexist as fuck. Sure, plenty of men have a hard time making ends meet in this economy, and many of them wouldn't be able to make rent without their girlfriend's/wife's income.

OH NOES THEY GOLDDIGGAS WHO NEED A WOMAN TO "VALIDATE" THEM, WHY CAN'T G PAY HIS OWN RENT???

I.e. criticizing women for relying on men's financial assistance when men frequently do the same is sexist bullshit.

Also, fuck you feminine girls and stay-at-home-moms! You're dumb whores who rely on men! What's that, you're raising five children? Pshaw! Why aren't you paying your own rent?

Here I am, directly criticizing the song for criticizing women who don't make their own money, directly implying that that criticism is wrong and that these women do have value.

Use your reading skills. I am saying the opposite of what you're saying I'm saying. Directly. And literally. This isn't hard.

[darkmanifest]

You're also saying the exact opposite of anything the song was saying, IMO, so I admit I was under the impression all those derogatory words were your opinion because it didn't have any other source I could see - my apologies for that. The song neither says nor implies any of this except by the most loose interpretation. (Criticizing other women? The song's narrator says that she herself used to be "a girl about the floss/It was all about the cost, how much he spent on me" before the standards she has now - she's not coming down on "most girls", she's saying what's considered popular in mainstream sexist culture is no longer for her. If you can point out where she makes an actual value judgment against "most girls", I would appreciate it). So I wonder how much of your rage extends from what you read and what you thought you read.

[ariakas]

she's not coming down on "most girls"

Most girls want a man with the bling-bling
Got my own thing, got the ching-ching
I just want real love
Most girls want a man with the mean green

Yes, yes she is. She literally is. She is literally saying that "most girls" are money-grubbers who prioritize a man's finances over "real love".

In fact, she's saying every girl (who is not her) is like this:

Getting paid was everything

But I'm not every girl
And I don't need that world to validate me

Seek for a man who gots the means
To be giving you diamond rings
It's what every fly girl
Could want or even dream

But I'm not every girl
And I don't need no g to take care of me

Whereas she, the superior one, can "pay her own rent" (as opposed to "every" and "most" girls, who cannot) and "doesn't want to dance if it's not in (her) heart" (as opposed to "most" or "every" girl who, as we saw above, just wants to fuck a man with the "mean green").

No, that is exactly what I thought I read. What I literally read. Her words.

[(Anonymous)]

The lyrics literally say that most girls care about money. Is this untrue? Caring about money is not necessarily a bad thing unless you're already reading it that way.

[ariakas]

It's not just that, though. She's saying that they care about it at the expense of "real love" (hence her contrast between herself and her imagined "most" or "every" girl). If it were just "'most' girls care about money", and not "most/every girls care about money more than feelings and are dependent on men, except for me who is superior because I don't" I would still think it was problematic for solely pointing the finger at women(because let's face it, most people care about money) but it wouldn't make me rage like this, no.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't know, I don't get that impression.

"Most girls like romance in their fanfic, but I'm not every girl. I just want real action. I don't need ships." "Most fanartists seek praise as validation but I'm not every fanartist. I just want real crit. I don't need reviews." I don't think there's superiority in there unless you already think liking romance or seeking validation is something negative.

[ariakas]

Really? Those statements wouldn't piss you off? Huh. Because they would me. Generalization and dumb, ham-handed stereotyping piss me off plenty: who says "every" girl likes romance? Has she asked every other girl? Moreover, the chances that someone would make the latter statement about "validation" without intending to come off as superior swiftly approach zero, because fanfic culture constantly derides "attention-seeking" behaviour like "demanding reviews". Same with the former; nobody is making these comments in a cultural vacuum. Pink most certainly isn't, either.

Please explain to me how, in our culture, one can say they prioritize true feelings or affection over money, whereas most of their group prioritizes money over true feelings or affection, without the implication that they are superior to the rest of their group.

Because "someone can say they do something our culture values over something else while the rest of the group does something stereotypical and less valued without it being a value judgement - and if you interpret it that way it's because you're the bigot" sounds awfully dodgy, to me.

[(Anonymous)]

I dunno you guys... I think they should make out.

( http://fuckyeahcreamsicle.tumblr.com/ )

[darkmanifest]

She's saying "most girls" want guys who are paid, and she no longer cares what kind of money he's got so long as she gets "real love". She does not say it makes her better, she's saying it makes her different from what "most girls" - such girls being other female performers - were talking about. At the time that songs like those (i.e. Destiny Child's "Independent Women Part I") were coming out, they were contradictions to most of the popular female R&B pop songs out at the time (i.e. TLC's "No Scrubs", which had just won a Grammy around then) which bragged about preferring guys who had big cash flows. This was the start of what would become Pink's main (and problematic, in directly antagonistic songs like "Stupid Girls") M.O., as a performer who held herself apart from other female pop performers.

So what I see the words saying is different from you see. You see "most girls are such stupid money-grubbers and I'm totally awesome", I see "most girls factor cash flow into their romances, that's not my thing". My only problem with what you see is that you keep saying it's the only valid idea of what's being said.

[ariakas]

Confession here: I don't listen to a lot of pop music. I know about this song, because some classmates that the time were in love with it and very much did use it to create and "us versus them" mentality I found despicable. I listen to even less R&B, so if they intention was simply to critique the songs you mention, a) I really have no context for that, and b) that certainly wasn't how it was interpreted amongst my peer group of young (white) women. By critiquing R&B culture and hip hop/urban groups, however, Pink is assuming she has the right to do so, which given her position of privilege I really don't think she has. But that's a whooollle different discussion.

This was the start of what would become Pink's main (and problematic, in directly antagonistic songs like "Stupid Girls") M.O., as a performer who held herself apart from other female pop performers.

This is what I cannot stand about Pink, put very succinctly. Pink has made a career out of "I am not like those other girls, who are dumb and shallow". She's the spokeswoman for the harmful, misogynistic "us versus them" mentality.

[(Anonymous)]

Because she totally didn't write this song to inspire young impressionable girls to stand for themselves and be independent! Nope! Because all song lyrics written from a first-person perspective should be taken at face value and can only represent the feelings of the artist!

Sigh. Most music fans tend to put themselves in the shoes of the artist when it comes to lyrics like these. They're written in a way that allows a person to relate to it directly so that when they sing it aloud or even think about it, they can find encouragement or inspiration. THAT'S ALL IT IS. Seriously. Pink isn't saying that every girl that's not her fucking sucks. She just writes songs in a way to entice strong feelings and relate directly to the listener. A superficial pop star would not sing about how great it is to be able to pay the rent and have a job. Only somebody that really understands their audience would do that.

And another thing, you don't have to be a female to find Pink's songs empowering just because they're generally about "GURL POWER YEEEAHHH!!" The only way I could see anybody being offended by these lyrics is if they themselves were "money-grubbers". How on earth is congratulating yourself on being independent and stable a bad thing?

[ariakas]

How on earth is congratulating yourself on being independent and stable a bad thing?

Because she's stereotyping and denigrating women as a whole in order to do so.

Pretttttty straightforward how that's problematic, I should think.

The only way I could see anybody being offended by these lyrics is if they themselves were "money-grubbers"

Strange, every boyfriend I've ever had has made less money than me, yet I was still offended by the implications a) "every" woman prioritizes money, and b) those who rely on money (or rather, women who rely on men's money) are inferior to those that don't.

Happy to broaden your horizons, anon.

[checkerblob.livejournal.com]

I really can't believe anyone's arguing with you. Those lyrics are obviously misogynistic "I'm not like *~other girl" drivel.

[ariakas]

I think, as one anon below suggested, they're mostly taking issue with my tone (which was admittedly harsh, now that I read these comments over).

Otherwise, yeah, this looks - and has always looked - pretty black and white and repugnant to me. "Stupid Girls" by the same artist is even worse.