[ SECRET POST #2084 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2084 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 094 secrets from Secret Submission Post #298.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[iggy]

He's certainly stubborn and not prone to following orders, but how is he judgmental?

[(Anonymous)]

nayrt

He pretty much jumps to conclusions about Tony without having all the facts and makes claims that he actually doesn't really know are true, and he steamrollers over Bruce's opinions when Tony was teasing him by jumping to his defense unasked (honey, the man's like 20 years older than you and doesn't need your protection, even if you are used to having to take care of your men in a warzone) and generally thinks he knows what's best for Bruce. And he has no trouble calling Loki Hitler to his face the moment he met him (not that that was a mis-judgement at all, but it was still fast.)

I dunno, I kinda really liked that quality in him though? It felt so natural and understandable in him. It would make sense for a guy who was so upset by the idea of not being able to join the army and watching other people fight and die while he stayed safe to have really strong and narrow ideas about what's the "right" way to be good and be a hero. Not saying that it's a bad thing, just that IMO it really gels with his endearing but kinda wide-eyed, super-earnest view of the war and the world during CA.

And I think it would also make sense for him to make cynical assumptions about the future and the people in it. I mean "they told me we won the war, they didn't tell me what we lost"? "Aren't the stars and stripes a little old-fashioned?" I seriously doubt he's got a very bright view of the future, so being judgmental about it really just felt very right to me.

[(Anonymous)]

I was wondering about that one too. I mean, we saw him being kind of mean to Tony, but Tony also a) started it and b) was being a dick too. Judging Tony for being a dick when Tony was being a dick doesn't seem judgmental to me.

Plus, he flat-out accepted Bruce and Hawkeye with nothing other than word-of-mouth good reviews; no judgement there either. ;D

[iggy]

Yeah I always side-eye the fans I see angry at Steve for how he treated Tony. Tony really WAS being a dick, and Steve called him on it. Plus at the point that Steve was really worked up and acting sort of dickish, the staff was affecting him somewhat.

Plus, he flat-out accepted Bruce and Hawkeye with nothing other than word-of-mouth good reviews; no judgement there either. ;D

The 'that's the only word I care about' scene with Bruce especially. If anything Steve is really very accepting.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, Steve didn't just call Tony out on being a dick. Tony was being a dick on the Helicarrier, and deserved to be called out for being a dick on the Helicarrier, but that's not what Steve did. He basically told Tony that he was worthless and stated outright, despite not knowing Tony at all, that he didn't care about anyone and that he would never sacrifice himself and didn't do anything for other people, and that he was nothing without the suit, which Steve, no offense, didn't know jack about.

As for seeing the footage? Well, he must've seen the footage of Tony diva-ing it up at the Expo, the racecar track, announcing "I am Iron Man", etc, and jumped to the conclusion that Tony was nothing but a glory hound. If he had seen footage of Tony having a meltdown at the podium after returning from Afghanistan, he was being intentionally cruel by saying those things (which is why I'm gonna assume he didn't see or at least didn't understand that piece of footage), and if he hadn't, he was too uninformed to make those kinds of statements. That's why his words were so out of line: the fact that he didn't know anything about Tony and was judging him based on basically zero evidence.

Of course, people go completely overboard screaming about how Steve's a big meanie meanie meanface who was purposely trying to hurt Tony because he's so meeeeeeaaaan rather than simply calling it like he saw it and standing up for his beliefs and the value of his dead friends, and when he was obviously being affected by the scepter and would never have been that openly cruel without it, but the words were still nasty as hell.

Now, it's hardly a "poor Tony" scenario because, uh, well, Tony pretty much does everything he can to project the persona of an unconcerned selfish asshole and if you do that, it's your fault if people believe it. Also, yeah, he started the bickering, what did he expect? It's more of a "wow, Steve, that was uncalled for no matter who you were talking to" scenario.

(before you ask, Steve's actually my second favorite character after Natasha, but I was really fascinated by this one moment where he spoke without thinking and accidentally let slip such an accidentally-personal putdown without even knowing it. Because it's such a small moment, if you think about it, which so little thought or buildup put into it, and yet it leaves such an impact. And the later gutpunch at the climax of the movie -- I'm gonna come right out and say that the expression on Steve's face when he told Natasha to close the portal and when he thought Tony was dead was even more gutwrenching to me than Tony's face when his call to Pepper failed. Because it was such a small thing that Steve said, really, but now he'd never be able to apologize or forget it. It's kind of like him putting off signing Coulson's trading cards only to never get the chance to sign them because Coulson died. A tiny mistake that could've happened to anyone but happened in such a way that it would stick in his mind forever).

[(Anonymous)]

Are we forgetting the "everything special about you came out of a bottle" retort Tony had? Because I find that one way, way worse in comparison. Tony, by all appearances, still tries to get the public to believe he's still the same playboy he was. Steve, on the other hand, was a super soldier for, what, only a couple years after being told he wasn't good for anything his entire life?

Low blows on both counts, seriously, but I hate it when people bring up one without the other. :/

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

Oh no, I just wasn't really focusing on what Tony said, because I think it takes away from a good analysis to go "but this one was worse!" or "but the other guy said this!" Obviously Tony was a huge dick to Steve, but that wasn't exactly the point I was making, which was that it didn't matter if Tony was a saint or a complete monster, either way Steve's comment was totally uninformed.

But yup, I hate it when people try to get into a pissing contest about who was worse. They were both completely immature and out of line there (which I totally looooooved, btw ;))

I think people focus more on Tony than Steve because Steve just kind of eyerolls Tony's comment away while the look on Tony's face is completely shattered. Since Chris Evans showed himself to be excellent at facial reactions, I'm guessing it was a directoral decision to show that Steve actually didn't give a shit what Tony said about him. But from the same logic I just used about Steve's comment: that doesn't make Tony's comment any less mean-spirited from his intent.

GAH I love the fact that this movie makes it possible for me to try to interpret the actions of characters I love in the most assholish light possible :) It's so refreshing, having a fandom whose characters' likability is so strong I can bash and insult them to kingdom come and not have my adoration of them tarnished at all. :D

[iggy]

This.

[iggy]

But uh Tony did the same thing? He told Steve he was worthless basically.

[(Anonymous)]

What I mean is that Tony's words have nothing to do with what Steve said. The fact that Tony's words were also terrible doesn't somehow retroactively reach backwards in time and make what Steve said okay, if that makes any sense. Even if he had said them before Steve said his piece, it still wouldn't make Steve's words okay, because that would just be sinking to Tony level.

But ITA that bashing Steve but not Tony for his douchiness in that exchange is also totally hypocritical and shallow. Because wow, just because Steve hurt Tony so badly doesn't mean Tony was any less of a jerk.

[iggy]

Tony certainly said dickish things to Steve before Steve snapped and went off though.

I don't think Steve's words were okay, but holding them against him and not Tony's words against him is yeah, a big problem. And I don't think that snapping at him to that degree (when holding the staff, mind) automatically places him as a judgmental person, namely because it's a) one situation and b) imo is PRESENTED as a really, really unusual thing and in contrast to his normal behavior.

In any case, I don't agree that Steve's words even hurt him that badly? They upset him, but they hardly broke his heart imo.

[(Anonymous)]

You obviously see those characters differently than we do and identify with Steve more than with Tony, so yeah.

[iggy]

Eh. I don't really identify with either of them that much, but I definitely identify more with Tony if I had to decide.

[intrigueing]

I'm sure those words hurt really really badly for the moment, but lol, I've seen people moaning about how "Tony's neeeeeever gonna forget what you said Steve!" and I start just giggling uncontrollably because, um, who was it who tried to sacrifice his life to save the island of Manhattan? Oh yeah. You really think he's so fucked-up in the head he's gonna believe those words after that? *facepalm*

And I hate it when people judge reaction harder than intent. Sure, Steve hurt Tony more than Tony hurt Steve, but Tony was totally more dickish than Steve was. That's, like, the whole point of their characters. Tony is a massive blustering harmless asshole who no one takes seriously and Steve is such a good nice upstanding guy that the rare times he says something dickish it makes people gasp.

[iggy]

This, exactly.

[(Anonymous)]

I know quite a few fans who found his response to Bruce a bit innocently-condescending, because uh no, a guy who turns into a giant rage monster? Being a brilliant scientist should not be the only word you care about and unless you're a total moron you're almost certainly lying when you say it, no matter how good your intentions are, and he sure as hell knows you're lying when you say it.

Not knocking Steve, but he was assuming Bruce would obviously not want to talk about his problem, but Bruce was constantly joking about the Hulk and referencing the Hulk and trying to get a response and make people stop being so fake and pretending the Hulk wasn't the elephant in the room, and everyone just Stepford-Smiled at him and pretended nothing was wrong and the emperor totally had clothes on until Tony waltzed in going "trololol you're so cool and so is your giant green personality disorder".

So that line was incredibly sweet and compassionate and accepting of Steve, but it was also kinda judgmental.

[(Anonymous)]

Bruce was constantly joking about the Hulk and referencing the Hulk and trying to get a response and make people stop being so fake and pretending the Hulk wasn't the elephant in the room, and everyone just Stepford-Smiled at him and pretended nothing was wrong and the emperor totally had clothes on until Tony waltzed in going "trololol you're so cool and so is your giant green personality disorder".

That's your interpretation. Mine says that Bruce was pleasant surprised by Tony's Tony-ness, but it's a pretty well known fact that no one is more scared of Bruce than Bruce. I seriously doubt he wanted the blanket acceptance/acknowledgement on any conscious level.

[iggy]

Wow that comes across as a huge, huge stretch and I have no idea how you're pulling that, but okay. Go for it. I guess Steve is a moron, because I am pretty sure that IS all he cared about but ymmv.

Pretty sure he was just saying that his Hulk problem was irrelevant to how he viewed him as a person.

I don't think that Bruce was joking about the Hulk thing because he wanted everyone to talk about it. I think he was doing so because he was uncomfortable with the fact that everyone there knew and was trying to make light of it as a defense reaction.

I mean how was Steve supposed to react in a way that wouldn't be 'judgmental' in your eyes? Because if he'd been forward in talking about Bruce's problem, wouldn't he be assuming that he did want to talk about it?

[intrigueing]

Yeah, this. My motto is that whenever you want to criticize someone for the way they acted, you should always try to remember to think "well, how should that particular have done it instead?" And if you don't have a good answer, or your answer is "they should've acted like this other character who's personality is completely different from their own", well, get off your high horse. Pretty much everyone's reactions to Bruce were totally understandable and sympathetic, whether it was Natasha, Fury, or Steve.

And I get annoyed when people feel the need to bash other characters when they're discussing how awesome Tony and Bruce's connection is, because fuck you guys, their connection is ALREADY awesome all on its own and you don't need to tear down all Bruce's other connections to make it any more awesome. In fact, tearing down everyone else makes it seem less awesome. The point was that everyone else's reaction to Bruce was great, while Tony's was amazing. Not that everyone else's reaction was horrible and assholish and Tony's was just marginally decent.

It's basically the friendship-equivalent of shippers tearing down every single love interest and friendship and romantic feeling Character X ever had in order to lift up Character X's One True Love as the only person in the universe who gives a single shit about Character X, with the effect of making Character X look like someone who is so bereft of emotional connections they settle for the first person who treats them in a marginally acceptable fashion, and turning the OTP into a horrible co-dependent farce of a relationship (I've been exposed to too much Buffy/Spike recently, can you tell?).

[intrigueing]

Okay, "trololol you're so cool and so is your giant green personality disorder" is the best description of Tony's reaction to Bruce ever, but I think the rest of your argument is a little unfair. It's not like they knew how to act around Bruce or what he preferred or how he liked to be treated. Tony knew because he could relate to Bruce on multiple levels and could see things the others couldn't and was bold enough to test his hunches, but everyone else? How were they supposed to know the first thing about how Bruce wanted to be treated? Steve's answer was as nice and accepting as he could swing it, given what information and understanding he had.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

TBH I think I may merge some of the comics and the films but he's always come across that way to me. That plus being stubern, in the comics anyway, has always been one of his weak spots. He's such a complex character and it's one of the reasons he's one of my favorites. (I can't chose between him and Tony love 'em both too much.)

This isn't really based on the scene on the SHEILD carier because they where both being Jerks TBH and it escalated pretty quickly because of the staff. It's the scene in the gymn that does it for me "They say what we won but they never say what we lost". He's so quick to condemn the entire future when he knows so very little about it. I think that scene coupled with the comics has kinda given me that impression which, you know, may be questionable i'm not sure.

It's also the deleted scene that sticks with me. I don't know if you';ve seen it but Tony is mentioned and he reacts negatively even before having met him based on what the press are saying and the stuff he see's without, you know, actually having met Tony. Sure, Tony reafirms it at the start by being an ass but.